#archiveteam-bs 2015-11-09,Mon

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00:36 🔗 yipdw DFJustin: ooh, neat
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02:23 🔗 SketchCow WAIT
02:23 🔗 SketchCow OK, whew, DFJustin just highlighted synergy
02:23 🔗 SketchCow that's how I do it
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04:24 🔗 xmc yipdw: can you echo it | nc -u 255.255.255.255
04:24 🔗 xmc or even yes it
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05:08 🔗 rentrin Your html brings tears to my eyes SketchCow :/ no char encoding, parse mode, doctype
05:08 🔗 rentrin http://textfiles.com/jason/
05:08 🔗 rentrin What are closing <p> tags :/
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05:10 🔗 xmc thanks for that interlude
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05:11 🔗 phuzion rentrin: In case you weren't aware, Google'
05:11 🔗 phuzion Google's homepage is pretty bad with HTML, if I'm not mistkane.
05:11 🔗 phuzion mistaken*
05:13 🔗 phuzion ps, it's 2015, as long as it works, if someone doesn't define the doctype, who cares?
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05:18 🔗 aposson I guess pointing out the html illiteracy of our overlord SketchCrow is against policy. Sorry for interrupting, may the circle jerk continue~
05:18 🔗 aposson peace.
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05:39 🔗 Jordan_ phuzion: Google's compression != bad
05:40 🔗 xmc what is this discussion about?
05:41 🔗 xmc are you really whining about some guy's home page's markup?
05:44 🔗 yipdw https://xkcd.com/386/ I guess
05:45 🔗 JesseW I think what confused me the most was the random changing their name between bouts of ... whatever that was.
05:46 🔗 JesseW Jordan_: er, what? who brought up Google's compression?
05:46 🔗 JesseW and compression of what? Their HTML?
05:46 🔗 Jordan_ >22:11 <phuzion> Google's homepage is pretty bad with HTML, if I'm not mistkane.
05:47 🔗 JesseW right, that was about the (presumably standards compliance) of Google's homepage. What does that have to do with how compressed (or not) it is?
05:48 🔗 Jordan_ Because Google doesn't have any issue with standard compliance?... lol.
05:48 🔗 JesseW what? Who did you think claimed that?
05:49 🔗 phuzion JesseW: Basically, I was pointing out that pages may not be standards compliant, but they still work nowadays because browsers are pretty friggin crafty and it's often not necessary to have a page that's 100% standards compliant
05:50 🔗 phuzion because rentrin was ragging on jason's homepage for really stupid shit (omg the html isn't compliant!!!)
05:50 🔗 JesseW yeah, that was what I thought you meant. I'm just confused how Jordan_ went from there to talking about compression, or people claiming that "Google doesn't have any issue with standard compliance".
05:51 🔗 yipdw Blender Bottles are awesome
05:52 🔗 xmc tbh i've never really seen the point
05:52 🔗 xmc ice cubes do just as well and they're more ecologically friendly
05:52 🔗 xmc they do make more noise though, disturbing the people across the table
05:52 🔗 yipdw I haven't tried ice cubes before
05:52 🔗 yipdw maybe I should
05:52 🔗 xmc oh yeah it's a whole new ballgame
05:53 🔗 Jordan_ When people look at Google's source and think "holy fuck, mah readability", it's due to compression
05:53 🔗 xmc also you don't have that problem with the blender ball thingy getting stuck in your teeth
05:53 🔗 Jordan_ As it follows correct standards, that's all I could assuming phuzion was talking about
05:53 🔗 yipdw I've never had that problem; the top usually keeps it in
05:53 🔗 xmc hm
05:53 🔗 phuzion Jordan_: google's homepage actually errors a lot on w3c validator.
05:53 🔗 xmc well i eat from a wide mouth nalgene
05:53 🔗 JesseW Jordan_: ah, ok, I think I understand what you meant now.
05:53 🔗 yipdw eat from?
05:53 🔗 xmc all my meals
05:54 🔗 Jordan_ Nothing game-breaking though, phuzion
05:55 🔗 phuzion Right, but neither are the "problems" on jason's homepage. I was pointing out that, look, yes, there are imperfections in the HTML on jason's page, but guess what, even Google has similar html errors. Not a big deal, since browsers work around it.
05:56 🔗 xmc anyway, yipdw, crushed ice or tiny ice cubes work really well
05:56 🔗 xmc big cubes don't mix it enough
05:56 🔗 yipdw I'll give it a shot
05:56 🔗 xmc but if you put too much ice in then the shake becomes a sludge because of the cold
05:57 🔗 yipdw that's fine, the bottle usually warms up pretty fast
05:57 🔗 yipdw IME
05:57 🔗 xmc i usually have 400mL powder, 150mL ice, 600mL water
05:57 🔗 xmc yeah
05:57 🔗 xmc the ice just makes it cool, especially if you use unchilled tapwater
05:57 🔗 Jordan_ Sure, but there's a big difference between the two. There's value in html validation, but yeah I know where you're coming from phuzion.
05:57 🔗 xmc what?
05:57 🔗 xmc we're talking about food
05:57 🔗 xmc "food"
05:58 🔗 xmc more like hacking fuel i guess
05:58 🔗 yipdw hey smoothies are food in some sense
05:58 🔗 xmc yeah, they're food more than water is food at least
05:59 🔗 xmc so what do you put in your blender bottle?
06:00 🔗 yipdw it's usually that Vega protein powder stuff
06:00 🔗 yipdw I'm basically the Whole Foods customer archetype, with all that negatively implies
06:01 🔗 xmc hahaha
06:01 🔗 xmc fair enough
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06:54 🔗 SketchCow NERDS gonna nerd
06:54 🔗 SketchCow I come back here from, you know, getting shit done
06:54 🔗 SketchCow and someone I've never heard of is telling me about DOCTYPE
06:54 🔗 SketchCow which my system predates
06:54 🔗 SketchCow as it probably predates him
06:55 🔗 SketchCow So also: Guy on twitter telling me if I don't use ZFS for my storage of these floppies, it's "no better than the original medium"
06:55 🔗 SketchCow If I'm going to jail for murder, it obviously has to be serial murder
06:55 🔗 SketchCow I mean, really go the val-u-pak
06:55 🔗 SketchCow Making a list, checking it twice, etc
06:57 🔗 SketchCow Oh, I see he left.
06:57 🔗 SketchCow Another nerd tourist
06:57 🔗 SketchCow Another aspie looky-loo
07:03 🔗 JesseW well, he came back ... under a different name ... a few minutes later. For whatever bizarre reason.
07:03 🔗 JesseW and didn't seem to notice he'd changed names...
07:04 🔗 JesseW speaking of getting things done -- I've been using my newfound powers for good over in #urlteam (hopefully)
07:05 🔗 SketchCow We can hope
07:05 🔗 SketchCow I like action.
07:05 🔗 SketchCow I don't like pointing and "you missed a spot"
07:05 🔗 ersi ACTION!
07:05 🔗 JesseW CAMERAS!
07:05 🔗 JesseW AIM!
07:05 🔗 JesseW (or is it supposed to go in a different order...)
07:06 🔗 JesseW (well, ask the documentarian... :-) )
07:06 🔗 SketchCow I work very hard and nerds explaining to me the "right" way to do things is not appreciated.
07:06 🔗 SketchCow And then, I idly take the laser-like focus I apply to things and I want to make someone cry
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07:12 🔗 ersi right way = doing it at all IMO
07:13 🔗 vitzli thank you, SketchCow
07:14 🔗 vitzli for the linux_distributions collection
07:15 🔗 JesseW http://archive.org/details/linux_distributions
07:16 🔗 SketchCow Easily done
07:16 🔗 SketchCow When you give me a collection of item names, I can do a thing against them
07:19 🔗 JesseW I noticed (like I do) that one was marked by the uploader as "delete". I'll send that to info@, unless you want to do it...
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07:19 🔗 JesseW https://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_LighthousePup-412_pets_sfs_173
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07:21 🔗 JesseW SketchCow: is giving you a search query (maybe including a list of items *not* to include) equally good, or is it better to have them expanded?
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09:07 🔗 PurpleSym Thumbnails in the wiki seem to be broken for large images: http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=File:Code.google.com_shutdown_screencapture.png
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20:24 🔗 JW_work SketchCow: I see my email about sorting items in magazine_rack was in a useful form. BTW, please attribute https://archive.org/details/the_agitator&tab=about to https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/agitator/index.htm . :-)
20:25 🔗 JW_work And https://archive.org/details/labor_age&tab=about to https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/laborage/index.htm . I'll try to provide descriptions along with my lists of items in future emails.
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20:32 🔗 SketchCow I credited both to marxists.org. Sufficient.
20:33 🔗 JW_work as you like. I thought it useful to link directly, so people can find where it was previously published (and where they can find more).
20:34 🔗 SketchCow Six people care about this
20:34 🔗 JW_work six? more than I thought it was. :-)
20:34 🔗 SketchCow About six
20:34 🔗 JW_work heh.
20:34 🔗 JW_work in any case, thanks for making the collections
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21:19 🔗 xmc pgoetz: we try to keep #archiveteam quiet so that important information doesn't get buried
21:21 🔗 phuzion pgoetz: Was I reading correctly that you have approximately 12TB of data to offline-archive?
21:23 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: yes, this is correct; with data piling up as we speak. I'm working with a national archive to try and come up with some strategy. We've been backing up to 1TB SSD's, but I read an article that these can be highly unstable when unplugged under certain conditions.
21:23 🔗 pgoetz xmc: I totallly understand
21:23 🔗 phuzion Yeah, SSDs start losing bits pretty quickly IIRC.
21:23 🔗 phuzion Have you guys evaluated LTO tape as an option?
21:23 🔗 midas #archiveteam-bs pls
21:24 🔗 midas oops
21:24 🔗 phuzion Probably much cheaper than the optical solution you were linking in the other channel, and readers will be much more available for the forseeable future.
21:24 🔗 midas already there
21:24 🔗 midas i'd go for bluray, LG has 125GB disks
21:25 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: we used tape before, and might consider it. I'm just a bit leary, because the tape drive technology keeps changing, and the hardward isn't as robust as one would like.
21:25 🔗 pgoetz hardward --> hardware
21:26 🔗 phuzion How robust do you need of hardware? You're probably talking about maintaining a library of 50 tapes or less, even your entry level LTO drive should handle 50 tapes a month.
21:26 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: regarding SSD, it's not clear. As soon as the swath of articles came out claiming that you can experience data loss in as little as 30 minutes, this was immediately debunked as coming from an industry-internal tech document that was never meant for public consumption and was highly misleading.
21:27 🔗 RedType_ bluray lth vs htl: some people in here are familiar with the difference, but if you're not, you should look it up
21:27 🔗 RedType_ basically, lth is the dye based tech that existing cdr/dvdrs use, with the same oxidation/degredation issues
21:27 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: I'm more worried about long term offline storage. The benchmark I'm using is 10 years.
21:28 🔗 xmc pgoetz: 10 years in what kind of environment, what kind of institutional support do you have
21:28 🔗 phuzion and what kind of budget
21:28 🔗 pgoetz When I brought up the issue of using tape again, the users were fairly opposed to this option due to various issues we had previously (mostly driver stuff)
21:29 🔗 phuzion pgoetz: you said you're working for a national archive of some sorts?
21:29 🔗 xmc pgoetz works for a cut-rate spy agency, they want to be the nsa but don't have the budget
21:29 🔗 pgoetz $20K? Yes. The Archives of the Episcopal Church
21:29 🔗 xmc oh
21:30 🔗 pgoetz They typically aren't swimming in cash, but are accumulating quite a bit of data.
21:31 🔗 pgoetz No thoughts on this product? https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-nab2015/mkt-nab2015mediaworkflow/product-ODSD77U/
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21:31 🔗 pgoetz I was pretty thrilled when I found it. You can backup about 1.5TB on each cartridge, and the cartridges are dirt cheap.
21:31 🔗 xmc it sounds really expensive
21:31 🔗 phuzion My thoughts on that product are that Sony has no obligation to make replacements for that device in 10 years, whereas LTO has a big enough marketshare that there absolutely should be LTO drives available that can read an LTO6 tape in 10-20 years.
21:32 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: this is a good point.
21:32 🔗 Fletcher_ is now known as fletcher
21:32 🔗 xmc you should budget to check and recopy all your data every few years (3 or 5 max)
21:32 🔗 fletcher is now known as Fletcher
21:33 🔗 pgoetz The Sony drive was until recently available on amazon for about $5K. I think the strategy would be to buy an extra drive. Also, Sony has desigend these for archival storage and guarantees the medium for something like 40 years.
21:33 🔗 xmc do you trust sony for continuity? they have new connectors on every product they release
21:33 🔗 pgoetz RedType_: I think this addresses the question of whether or not this would be using archival quality optical disks.
21:34 🔗 phuzion Also, the media is only manufactured by one company. If Sony decides it's not profitable, that product could hit the cutting room floor tomorrow.
21:34 🔗 pgoetz xmc: No, I don't trust any hardware manufacturer, frankly. We would buy an extra drive to hold in reserve. USB 3.0 will probably be supported fora long time.
21:34 🔗 xmc maybe :)
21:35 🔗 pgoetz phuzion: another good point, although I think there are other people (Phillips?) getting into the cartridge manufacturing business.
21:36 🔗 pgoetz It's a typical self-fulfilling prophecy: if enough people buy the drives, it will probably be supported for a long time. Seems like there hasn't been much interest, though.
21:36 🔗 phuzion "if enough people buy the drives, it will probably be supported for a long time." Are you willing to gamble on that though?
21:37 🔗 xmc they already said no
21:37 🔗 pgoetz pgoetz: Well, it's definitely better than the current strategy of doing offsite backups to external SSD's.
21:38 🔗 pgoetz I haven't bought a tape library in a while, and have mostly been implementing the google strategy of just having each piece of data available on several machines
21:38 🔗 pgoetz However all the servers are currently at one location; hence the need for offsite.
21:39 🔗 pgoetz Using something like Glacier would be an option, but relying on Glacier would likely violate their charter.
21:39 🔗 pgoetz xmc: The current data refresh is every 6 months.
21:40 🔗 phuzion pgoetz: cost to store 12TB on glacier for 10 years is about $10K
21:40 🔗 xmc point of order, $10,000 over ten years gets you $100 a month
21:40 🔗 pgoetz I still don't understand how they can make money doing this; this seems unbelievably cheap.
21:41 🔗 pgoetz Any recommendations for a very reliable LTO library system?
21:41 🔗 RedType_ pgoetz: it screams selling an internal solution to me
21:42 🔗 RedType_ they needed glacier, they built it with extra capacity, and now they're selling it. The already had all of the billing/data transfer infrastructure in place.
21:42 🔗 phuzion RedType_: Literally how AWS started in the first place.
21:43 🔗 phuzion "We need a technology. Let's build it. Oh, we built it and it works really well. Let's build more of it and sell it to people."
21:43 🔗 pgoetz RedType_: this sounds about right. I have a friend who works at Google and he claims that the win for providing cloud storage is they end up buying more hardware and can consequently leverage the margins a bit better.
21:44 🔗 pgoetz I.e. they don't actually make money on the people buying the service, just end up saving on hardware costs for their own use.
21:44 🔗 RedType_ the math of business models at that scale is always mind boggling
21:45 🔗 achip one of the better explanations of glacier I've seen (I think facebook did something similar) is a bunch of storage arrays that are brought offline when they are full and brought back up once every few months just to verify the bits and check drives, that may be an option worth looking at
21:46 🔗 phuzion achip: Yeah, I saw a video on how facebook does its archival storage, pretty cool.
21:46 🔗 pgoetz achip: Or they just dump everything to massive tape libraries, and pull it into fast storage when the customer is trying to access it.
21:47 🔗 RedType_ i believe glacier is robot based as well
21:47 🔗 RedType_ so aside from someone picking up the storage pod from the fedex truck, plugging it in, and cleaning it with a damp cloth when it's done, it's all robots
21:49 🔗 pgoetz BTW, I think the typical Archives strategy for stuff like old tapes (does anyone remember 12" optical disks) etc. is to always purchase at least 2 hardware readers and keep one in a box unused after testing.
21:50 🔗 SketchCow What's the discussion
21:50 🔗 SketchCow sdlfkjsdlkfjsdf
21:51 🔗 pgoetz The discussion is how best to back up several TB of data and store it offline for lengthy periods of time with a reasonable expectation that there won't be any loss of data integrity.
21:53 🔗 pgoetz HDD and SSD are too unstable when unplugged for more than 6 months; tape seems to be pretty good, although not nearly as good as archival-grade optical disks.
21:54 🔗 pgoetz midas: yeah, the (soon 200GB) blu-ray disks might be the middle path. For 12TB, this amounts to about 60 disks, which is just within the realm of managable. (Most of this data is stuff like images which are not very compressible)
22:00 🔗 pgoetz LTO-6 lets you backup 3TB (uncompressed) per tape, which is pretty good. I still have some concerns about the longer term stability of the tapes, but I guess you just keep refreshing the tape at least once a year and keep 3 sets in rotation.
22:02 🔗 winr4r pgoetz: last i cared to look it up, tape has very good long-term durability if it's not stored in stupid conditions
22:03 🔗 winr4r (source: a thing i read a few years ago that i can't remember but seemed well-reasoned, so don't take me too seriously)
22:03 🔗 pgoetz http://searchdatabackup.techtarget.com/tip/How-to-estimate-the-lifespan-of-LTO-tapes
22:05 🔗 pgoetz This is what worries me. From that article: There is also the matter of obsolescence. The LTO specification, introduced in 1999, calls for an LTO drive to be able to read tapes two generations back. Thus, the current LTO-3 drives will read LTO-1 tapes, but the new LTO-4 won't read anything earlier than LTO-2.
22:07 🔗 winr4r ah, yeah
22:08 🔗 pgoetz The other thing is we manage several tape libraries at my day job and they're always screwing up: tapes get stuck, ripped up, etc..
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23:13 🔗 dashcloud on the AWS point mentioned earlier: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-amazon-is-so-hard-to-topple-in-the-cloud-and-where-everybody-else-falls-2015-10
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23:33 🔗 godane SketchCow: if i can find a way to get past the rate limit i can do kpfa
23:33 🔗 godane does anyone know how to do that?
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