#archiveteam-bs 2017-09-22,Fri

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Time Nickname Message
00:09 🔗 joepie91_ second: haven't used Go, have used Python; but I've looked at Go a bit, and can't say that I'd recommend it based on that
00:10 🔗 joepie91_ Go seems very much designed for the lowest common denominator; it's pretty lacking in the guarantees it provides, there are some bizarre missing features in standard libraries (apparently timeouts cannot be controlled on a per-connection basis, at least for HTTP stuff? Caddy was having issues with this), URL-based dependency management is a terrible idea, and it seems entirely reliant on Google continuing to support it
00:11 🔗 joepie91_ I'm not particularly a fan of Python for a variety of reasons, but if the choice were between those two, I'd probably say Python; it's certainly going to be around and supported in a decade, it has mature standard libraries, and a healthy ecosystem
00:12 🔗 joepie91_ (my languages of choice nowadays are either JS (using Node.js) or Rust, depending on requirements and type of project)
00:13 🔗 joepie91_ and with that I disappear off to bed
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00:41 🔗 chfoo i haven't done anything in go so i don't really know much about it
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02:23 🔗 second Thanks :)
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06:16 🔗 Somebody2 ola_norsk (if you read the logs): A *lot* of IA's collections are available for free, public download. ...
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06:17 🔗 Somebody2 You could work on organizing funding and maintainance for sufficient storage to hold the public stuff without any permission or involvement by IA.
06:18 🔗 Somebody2 And once you have that, you could populate it, again with minimal to no involvement by IA.
06:18 🔗 Somebody2 If/when you did that, and still had available room, I *strongly* expect IA would be *very glad* to talk to you about mirroring ...
06:18 🔗 Somebody2 various parts of their non-freely-available material.
06:19 🔗 Somebody2 So, please DO talk to greenmountain about mirroring!
07:34 🔗 JAA second: I've never worked with Go either.
07:35 🔗 JAA joepie91_: What do you dislike about Python? 2.x has tons of issues, but I think 3.x is lovely.
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08:36 🔗 zino Python is a lovely language with a few flaws that makes me avoid it if I can. Among them: 1. No block markers. Hard dependency on indentation is cute but infuriatingly fragile. 2. Lack of sane type system
08:39 🔗 zino Slightly biased though. Have been a developer of another language since before Python was a thing. :)
08:39 🔗 JAA How is indentation fragile?
08:40 🔗 JAA I always indent blocks anyway, also in other languages, simply for readability, so I find block markers redundant.
08:42 🔗 zino To early in the morning to run through that. I'll be stuck here for an hour and be late for work. Let's reconvene at a later time.
08:42 🔗 JAA Sure :-)
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10:08 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: excruciatingly poor package management, poor ecosystem documentation, Python 2/3 compat issues (when writing a library), it's mostly ecosystem stuff
10:08 🔗 joepie91_ also, a jungle of mutually incompatible async I/O stuff
10:09 🔗 joepie91_ it's just not pleasant to work with if you need to color outside the lines, and I have yet to find a case [that is relevant to me in any way] where Python is a better choice than JS
10:10 🔗 joepie91_ because it's bad at the same things JS is bad at
10:11 🔗 JAA Well yeah, pretty much all languages have that problem of package management, documentation of external libraries/packages, etc.
10:11 🔗 JAA Python 2 should really just die already, then you also get rid of the compatibility issues. ;-)
10:12 🔗 JAA And I assume you refer to the various frameworks for developing asynchronous stuff, like trollius etc.? Python 3.5 (I think) has asyncio in the core library. I don't have much experience with it though.
10:16 🔗 JAA Just checked. asyncio (which was previously developed as an external package for years) was merged into Python at version 3.4, but the new syntax of 'async def' and 'await' (instead of abusing generators) was only introduced in 3.5.
10:16 🔗 JAA Also 'async with' and 'async for', of course.
10:25 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: both package management and documentation are fine in Node.js-land and Rust-land :)
10:25 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: with async stuff I'm referring to twisted, tornado, etc.
10:25 🔗 joepie91_ and yes, asyncio is a thing now, but support is far from widespread last I checked
10:25 🔗 joepie91_ which means you now really just have Yet Another Async Implementation
10:26 🔗 JAA It'll only be as good as the package maintainers make it, right? That's really the same in Python-land. Most packages I've worked with are documented pretty well.
10:26 🔗 joepie91_ one with slightly better compatibility than the previous options, but still not universal
10:26 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: no, it's nowhere near as simple as that
10:26 🔗 joepie91_ it's largely dependent on habits and attitudes in the ecosystem, and the tools that are at hand
10:26 🔗 joepie91_ I've found an overwhelming attitude of "stop complaining it's fine" in Python-land
10:26 🔗 joepie91_ leading to nobody ever fixing any reported issues ever that aren't provable bugs
10:27 🔗 joepie91_ this is definitely an ecosystem thing that varies by language
10:27 🔗 JAA I guess we didn't work with the same packages then.
10:27 🔗 joepie91_ Rust has an extremely strong focus on accessibility and therefore has very good documentation almost across the board
10:27 🔗 joepie91_ Node.js doesn't have that focus, but the low barrier to documentation ("a README that's shown front-and-center on the NPM package page") means that nearly everybody writes enough documentation to use their stuff
10:28 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: more likely, you didn't color outside the lines as much
10:28 🔗 joepie91_ for example, I've often hear people praise the Twisted documentation
10:28 🔗 joepie91_ which, yeah, sure, is great if you have bog standard usecases like 'serve up a HTTP response"
10:28 🔗 joepie91_ but try to look at shit like a reverse proxy and suddenly there's "Undocumented" tags everywhere
10:29 🔗 joepie91_ this is one of the big reasons I jumped ship from Python, that almost universally the uncommon cases did not have sufficient documentation or reference documentation was completely absent
10:29 🔗 JAA The asynio situation is definitely the one of XKCD 927, but anytime something is introduced into the core library, there are already dozens of other implementations because people needed something like that already, so that's not really surprising.
10:29 🔗 joepie91_ for big and small packages alike
10:29 🔗 JAA Yes, fuck Twisted. I've worked with that once, and it's a nightmare.
10:30 🔗 joepie91_ sure, just trying to point out the contrast between common and uncommon stuff
10:30 🔗 joepie91_ in Twisted this is obvious because there *are* undocumented markers
10:30 🔗 joepie91_ in most packages there's just a void and you don't even realize a feature is there
10:30 🔗 JAA I also work a lot with numpy, scipy, etc. though, and those are really excellent.
10:30 🔗 joepie91_ numpy and scipy and that entire scientific-computing eocsystem are exceptions :)
10:30 🔗 JAA Hehe
10:31 🔗 joepie91_ ecosystem*
10:31 🔗 joepie91_ incidentally, also the only thing where Python is still the optimal choice imo
10:31 🔗 joepie91_ simply because of the library support
10:31 🔗 joepie91_ but as a general-purpose language, I cannot recommend it at all
10:31 🔗 joepie91_ in particular because of the unwillingness of people in the ecosystem to fix the issues that exist
10:32 🔗 joepie91_ I got tired pretty quickly of having every bit of criticism met by somebody trying to trivialize it
10:32 🔗 JAA Mhm. I haven't come across that so far, to be honest.
10:32 🔗 JAA Then again, I also didn't work with many Python package maintainers.
10:33 🔗 joepie91_ right
10:33 🔗 joepie91_ it becomes pretty obvious when you try to do the less obvious things :P
10:33 🔗 joepie91_ anyway, tl;dr the Python ecosystem is stagnant
10:33 🔗 joepie91_ and that is honestly a bigger issue than the problems existing in the first place
10:33 🔗 joepie91_ I don't really care about problems so long as there's a good chance that they will be resolved
10:34 🔗 joepie91_ but if people refuse to acknowledge the problems in the first place...
10:35 🔗 joepie91_ (for all the hate that JS gets, you can walk up to almost any maintainer for a package on NPM and say "such and such is bad because X, perhaps it can be improved by doing Y?" and you'll probably be taken seriously)
10:35 🔗 joepie91_ (and Rust people are just trying to get it right from the start)
10:35 🔗 joepie91_ anyway, enough ranting, my shoulder is complaining :P
10:36 🔗 JAA If that's true, then it's definitely an issue. But as said, I've never seen that anywhere so far.
10:36 🔗 JAA I don't suppose you have examples?
10:37 🔗 joepie91_ in happier news: https://twitter.com/qufdl7900/status/910804760244056064
10:37 🔗 joepie91_ JAA: not a lot of documented stuff, but https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-February/641772.html and the thread surrounding it is an example
10:37 🔗 joepie91_ (that particular post is especially good, better than my original post that it's about)
10:39 🔗 JAA Thanks, I'll look at it later.
10:39 🔗 joepie91_ (also, the post of mine it references was my last-ditch effort to try and get shit fixed before jumping ship)
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17:46 🔗 DFJustin http://blog.archive.org/2017/09/22/experiments-day-hackathon-2017/
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20:31 🔗 Smiley yawn
20:31 🔗 Smiley wow, fired up my 2 year outta date warrior, iut still works
20:31 🔗 Smiley \o/ gj guys :)
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21:06 🔗 JAA Yeah, the warrior hasn't been updated in several years, as far as I know. :-/
21:16 🔗 jrwr I have a updated VM pending
21:16 🔗 jrwr but no one bothered to approve it
21:16 🔗 jrwr :)
21:21 🔗 JAA The one which uses the Docker container internally, right?
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