#archiveteam-bs 2017-12-14,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
ez(same for ipfs-js)
companies naively thinking users will seed. thats not how bt works.
[00:00]
ola_norski found this player on some url that supported srt [00:01]
ez(public) bt stands and falls on 1% out of peers being very altruistic [00:01]
ola_norskaye, it would need a back-bone source, as last resorts [00:01]
ezola_norsk: its been tried before [00:02]
ola_norske.g: "there's no peers, have some from the source" kind of thing [00:02]
ezby much bigger guys than this, notably akamai
p2p, for video flashcrowds, doesnt help that much. it just increases technical complexity.
the limitation is mostly browser. a website cant start a background seeding task after you view a video.
the flashcrowd needs to be viewing at the exact same moment, and this starts showing only results with very long (2h) videos
[00:02]
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ezanything shorter than that and the variance in churn is too big [00:03]
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ola_norskso, if every peer closes browser, the video stops for the last remaining one ? [00:05]
ezthe nice thing is that it does help to scale really big flashcrowd, if bitchute had some super popular video now, they could host it even with measly infrastructure they have, as they're just seeds
however this is simply not regular usage pattern
regular usage is mostly people watching random video each, which is basically worst case
[00:05]
ola_norskwhat if it was at least an option though? like choosing between flash and html5 player= [00:06]
ezola_norsk: its a bit more involved than that. the first thing is that most peers dont have the kind of bandwidth to match their upload rate with download rate [00:06]
ola_norskcould that be detected? [00:07]
ezeveryone needs to seed back at 1:1 or the swarm collapses (this is if we ignore altruists)
no, its just a general rule of shitty US "broadband"
you can download a 1080p video at 5-10Mbits, but will have a lot of trouble uploading it back at same rate
[00:07]
ola_norskah
i have only one option :/ either mobile broadband, or fiber :/
[00:08]
ezthe assymetry itself is not a problem, it just makes the system all that more unstable
swarming in general only works when the swarms are largely asynchronous. ie you view a view, and then seed it for 2 days
doesnt really matter what your up bw is
[00:09]
ola_norskcould up rate be detected by player though=
?
[00:09]
ezwhat do you mean detected? [00:09]
ola_norsklike when setting uprate in e.g qbittorrent [00:10]
ezsure, anyone can set upload speed to anything they want [00:10]
ola_norskaye, but setting it too high is not good [00:10]
ezpublic swarms rely on sort of averaged out altruism. the trouble is the necessary level of altruism doesnt happen even if people *dont* throttle their up bw
even i the browser uploads full throttle, its not enough, coz the user overwhelmingly closes the tab and stop seeding once they're done watching
[00:10]
ola_norskthat's what i mean by 'last resort' source [00:11]
ezyes, theres always a seed. which in case of bitchute, would be overwhelmed by long trail effect of there being many non-functional swarms [00:12]
ola_norske.g torrents have 'web sources' ability [00:12]
ezclick random videos on bitchute
you rarely find a swarm
most are just streamed from a seed
[00:12]
ola_norskaye, i've experienced some bitchute videos does not play [00:13]
ezthats because of the long trail. now for live streaming, p2p works much better, but it aint all sunshine either (with live video you have another problem - latency) [00:13]
ola_norskwhat if the player just fell back to the timecode of html5 player, should it drop off? [00:15]
ezhuh?
if theres not enough bw to support video bitrate, doesnt matter if single source or swarm, instant streaming is not possible
the site becomes just lotsa of 'loading...' animations
[00:16]
ola_norske.g, when the webtorrent player lost all peers, it dropped to 'regular' html5/flash player, sending the timecode to begin at in the video as e.g url? [00:18]
ezits possible, but silly
its semantically same as just talking to the seed
[00:18]
ola_norski blame beer for that :D [00:18]
ezso its simpler just stay connected to the seed [00:19]
ola_norskweeb seed? [00:19]
ezno, the webrtc one. unfortunately browsers are severely crippled in what they do [00:19]
ola_norskit does not support http sources? [00:20]
eztheres even no reliable way to take random url and seed it into webrtc.
in a web browser
webtorrent is kind of misnomer, its a separate protocol, only for webrtc
and everything in there must talk webrtc for it to work at all
[00:20]
ola_norskaye, but regular torrent files support 'web/http sources' to be included, do they not=
?
[00:21]
ezyes, they support webseeds. again, its semantically same thing
iirc IA actually actualyl provides both - seed and http source (via same server), so that clients who dont support webseeding (rtorrent) can still see the seeded data
[00:21]
ola_norskthere's no way to have that as backfall/last-resort source, in a p2p player? [00:22]
ezwhy last resort? [00:22]
ola_norskfallback source i mean [00:23]
ezits used to as much resort as the webseed has bandwidth [00:23]
ola_norskif there's no peers [00:23]
eztheres always the seed
the issue is that its not fast enough, thats the whole point of swarming
ola_norsk: the non-playing videos you see on bitchute
are those which got dmcad or something to that effect
for one reason or another, bitchute seedbox dropped it
and if theres no volunteer to seed it, its dead now
[00:23]
ola_norski think i'm struggling to explain what i mean. As it is today, all outgoing data from IA videos goes from IA i think. But, barring there's no peers currently watching or listerning that web source; could webtorrent player be employed to negate SOME of that output? [00:26]
ezsure
but it would cut through only very little of overall traffic
its not worth the complexity
again, there are now flashcrowds most of the time
no flashcrowds, no swarm, no seeds
s/now/no
[00:26]
ola_norskif there's just one 'viewer' it could fall back to normal viewing of the file. I think that is what i mean [00:28]
ezola_norsk: it would be even more naive than what bitchute is doing, as IA viewership is very long trail (thers no promotion of popular videos and what not)
ola_norsk: it *always* "falls back"
[00:28]
ola_norskaye [00:28]
ezgenerally, the seed just uploads to 8 peers or so in the swarm, at whatever rate it can afford [00:29]
ola_norskbut some items might have simultaneous viewers though [00:29]
ezas long the swarm gets big enough, it becomes self-sustaining
but theres no reason for the seed to *stop* talking to the swarm
its really bad idea actually
ola_norsk: yes, the issue here is that the 'simultaneous viewers' items are too brief
in overall see of singleton viewers, the rate coincidence is too small for swarms to emerge
s/see/sea/
ola_norsk: it should be noted that we dont have bittorrent support in browser, simply because its been lobbied away
opera tried to do this in 2008 or so, but google stomped it
[00:29]
ola_norskI think that is what i mean by it falling back to 'normal play' ..i'm getting to beered man :D cya tomorrow [00:32]
ezrightly so, because having true swarming in browser would be very dangerous to youtube hegemony [00:32]
ola_norski need fucking Freemind to explain what i mean i think, ATM :D
skål!
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godaneso i have uploaded 13k items this month so far
11k of that is just dtic archive files
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godaneSketchCow: https://archive.org/details/@girls_gone_wow
i figure you will want to make a collection from that
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godaneSketchCow: http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/virtual_disk_library/index.cgi/ [02:37]
mundushttps://www.engadget.com/2017/12/13/tidal-jay-z-financial-trouble/
I have 30TB of tidal archived already, but probably not to the standard of AT
and it's all stuff that can be found elsewhere
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ThisAsYouCould you even release that to IA? [04:41]
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video_hi [05:46]
CoolCanukhi!
You could also try www.archiveteam.org
which should work
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video_OK NOW archiveteam.org WORKS WTF [05:47]
CoolCanukyep
and I wouldnt be surprised if you experience the problem, randomly, again
such an annoying problem.
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video_also archiveteam warrior 3 won't start downloading vidme for some reason
and when i do it on archiveteam warrior 2 it gives me a deduplicatewarc error
wait wrong chat shit
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kimmer1how much does it cost to maintain AIM service? I would recon that it's like maintaining a service like IRC servers... no ongoing development for AIM is taking place anymore, soon.. hardware and electricity? apparently that is also to expensive thise days
phone auto correct..
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PoorHomieThisAsYou: technically you can put anything you want on IA. If it gets DMCA'd or anything they just "dark" it, they never delete anything [15:04]
ThisAsYouOh really? Interesting.
"never delete anything", I like that
kimmer1: I'm guessing a lot of legacy servers that needed upgrading, and they didn't want to put in the work to move to cheap VM's or something
[15:05]
PoorHomieThe idea being that in 100 years when copyrights, etc are expired, they still have all that stuff and can re-release it [15:07]
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godaneso i'm at 1121k items
thats 1,121,884 items right now
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SketchCowOps please [17:15]
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godanePrairie Home Companion : magnet:?xt=urn:btih:12e016aca1e397779b7ddaa00e6669e8c269358a&dn=Prairie%20Home%20Companion
i don't have the space for it
its about 45gb
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https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/14/16776154/fcc-net-neutrality-vote-results-rules-repealed
with that happening we need to doing the librarybox+kiwix+rachel-project+portable wayback machine boxes
also throw the full debian repo + ted talks into there some how
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ezor maybe just #archiveteam-politics? :) [21:13]
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godanehttp://www.westernelectric.com/library/historic-news.html
thats for SketchCow to check if we have all of the WE magazine issues from there
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SketchCowJAA: All those "a" files fixed.
Although of course they represent the remaining items of a pile of overwrites
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JAASketchCow: Thank you! [21:58]
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SketchCowWhat's the non-profit thing archive team joined?
asparagirl put us in it
[22:22]
vantechttps://opencollective.com/archiveteam/ [22:24]
ola_norskif it official enough that i can tout it on minds.com ?
is*
ola_norsk lies to rather pay a small amount amount, to try to make a large number of people donate to shit :)
likes*
damn spelling is not easy
if that is good and legit project, i'd pay to spam it to minds users :)
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ola_norskhow are the funds distributed though? "Sponsor an Archive Team coder"
and what is meant by "Sponsor an ArchiveBot pipeline" ?
[22:39]
CoolCanukaccurate cover photo. lmao. (sucking up all the data) https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ZJuQpUPJ/image.png [22:40]
ola_norskif there's $40 bucks to be made a month, running an archivebot, sign me up :)
ola_norsk got some scrap pc's collecting dust..
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SketchCowI'm not aggressively fundraising until after the IA drive [22:44]
ola_norskaye https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/785667436115402761 [22:45]
how about instead there was composed an advertised tweet for the archive.org/donate/ ?
(by some more eliquant than myself)
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ola_norskthough, based on that opencollective page, "Your donation of $40/month will sponsor an entire pipeline server." .. 40USD could do well against my electric bill :)
or even 80 or 120..
[23:01]
CoolCanuklol. here's what we have in Ontario for power :P https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/q5P3jVUv/image.png
(this is just someone's bill, not an average) but you almost always pay a ton for delivery
[23:02]
JAA$40 per month for one pipeline? Whoa, that's expensive.
(I pay significantly less than that for all three of mine.)
[23:03]
ola_norskshit, i have a homemade 19" i could refill if it's 40 USD/month per 60GB machine :D
rack
[23:04]
astridi think the idea is to pay the cost of hosting it, not a make-money-at-home-just-by-sending-email opportunity [23:05]
ola_norskso offsite virtual machines then?
im just jousting the idea. It's actually pretty cool though
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ola_norski'm not sure what the rental of a 60gb shared (vm) machine is even at these days [23:09]
what if instead those were modified to use e.g more than 60gb ? I'm thinking storage would be more priority than system
though i'm not sure what datacenters charge the most for
e.g instead of two machines at 60gb, there's instead one at 120gb ?
[23:16]
anyway, i think 40USD is a bit steep price for a 60GB vps :/ [23:28]
astridyea
it's a bit cheaper than that these days
[23:28]
ola_norskit's cool idea though :D
for 48 usd even i could rent 4 GB RAM
100 GB SSD-LAGRING
1 TB trafikk
and that's just 8 dollars shy of 40 :/
(at webhuset.no)..in expensive-as-fuck-Norway :/
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ola_norski'm thinking asking for a qutoe on specified needs would be cheaper. Simply going for any package that delivers 60+ of storage is waste. I doub't archivebots require 4gb of ram, for example.
and neither do they reqire 2 cpu's i guess
[23:54]
astridyou'd be surprised [23:56]
ola_norsknot if i could see minimal requirements somewhere :D [23:57]
astridit really depends on the job tbh [23:57]
ola_norskvideo encoding etc? [23:58]
astridchrist i remember why i left this channel
it's you
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ola_norsk:D [23:59]

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