#archiveteam-bs 2019-08-18,Sun

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12:05 ๐Ÿ”— eythian https://gitlab.com/eythian/warc-uploader just in case anyone finds it useful, I made a thing to make uploading WARCs to IA a bit easier for me.
12:39 ๐Ÿ”— ivan_ https://gist.github.com/ivan/079530350ac94851d581b55b1d372440
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13:12 ๐Ÿ”— eythian I always find using envvars for that kind of thing to not be very nice.
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13:51 ๐Ÿ”— abstract im not really sure why the rest of the world starting importing that antipattern from docker
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14:58 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl it's easier to implement parsers for. os.environ.get is easier than having to import getopt and using that to define arg options
15:00 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl and you can just as easily write daemonize wrappers around such things, (either implicitly or explicitly) inherit the environment variables to the subprocess and/or modify it in the process of doing so
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15:06 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl oh and security. envs dont show up in the process list while args do.
15:09 ๐Ÿ”— eythian some unix variants reveal the env to all other users too, though unlikely to be one that most use regularly.
15:10 ๐Ÿ”— eythian (here I did it by having the script query values if needed and dropping them in a config file, which suited my needs.)
15:10 ๐Ÿ”— eythian *query secret details
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15:23 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl "some unix variants" those are configured incorrectly then, this is what should be happening:
15:23 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl fusl@linux-0lcz:/proc/1> cat environ
15:23 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl cat: environ: Permission denied
15:25 ๐Ÿ”— eythian well, that's linux, which is fine. An older OpenBSD version (5.8?) allowed them to read, though it's since been fixed. It wasn't configuration, it was just what the OS permitted.
15:32 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl that being said, using environment variables isn't an "antipattern" as abstract mentioned. in fact, the linux kernel itself mostly uses environment variables to pass settings to the init daemon (parts of /proc/cmdline get mapped to /proc/1/environ) to get the job done. if this would be an antipattern, then linux in itself would be an antipattern
15:32 ๐Ÿ”— abstract Fusl, thats cool because its like your environment
15:32 ๐Ÿ”— abstract its shared
15:32 ๐Ÿ”— abstract i think mostly docker just uses it because it used to be nails to get per-container config going
15:33 ๐Ÿ”— abstract and now everyone thinks its a good idea
15:33 ๐Ÿ”— eythian I usually find it quite unergonomic, that's my main issue. It's awkward to in some usecases.
15:33 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl well as said, its so much easier and less error prone to just passthrough an entire environment stack to a subprocess than having to parse, modify and rebuild arguments
15:33 ๐Ÿ”— abstract it generally doesnt make sense to make application config part of your envuronment
15:34 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl "now everyone thinks its a good idea", i always though its a good idea because, as mentioned above, linux simply does it that way. just because *bsd doesnt it differently doesnt make it an antipattern or an incorrect usage of it
15:36 ๐Ÿ”— eythian though, needs of a kernel and init system can be quite different to those of a small userspace tool, and different again to those of a large userspace application.
15:36 ๐Ÿ”— JAA Not everything can be done that way easily though. You can have options appear multiple times in an arg list and parse that into a list, for example. With env vars, you need ugly tricks to achieve the same thing.
15:37 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl ^ dont get me wrong, argvs have their use cases, like the JAA described ones, but those are mostly dynamic things like supplying a list of urls to something, CLI tools, etc.
15:40 ๐Ÿ”— eythian you also can end up with a weird setup where invoking the same command in different terminals can have different results due to different environments, which can be surprising (not a problem if you wrapper script them, but I suspect for simple cases often people just 'export AB=cd' into the shell.)
15:41 ๐Ÿ”— eythian (extrapolating myself into many people, of course, is a risky call :)
15:43 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl export EDITOR=rm; alias vim=rm; there's always a way to fuck up your environments, unavoidable. i am more or less talking about large scale production systems and not development machines or anything like that.
15:45 ๐Ÿ”— eythian oh yeah, the large scale systems I work with do it totally differently (a mix of database/distributed db values, puppet-delivered files to a special location, envvars to override certain things for dev purposes, etc.)
15:46 ๐Ÿ”— eythian but that's a different case to a 200 line Perl script :)
15:46 ๐Ÿ”— Fusl 200 line perl scripts can also run in large scale production systems :)
15:47 ๐Ÿ”— eythian I work for a company that has multi-millions of lines of perl running, and more than a few 200 line perl scripts gluing things together. I know this very well :)
17:25 ๐Ÿ”— Raccoon I need a C# (c-sharp) programmer willing to do a dirty deed for me.
17:25 ๐Ÿ”— Raccoon https://github.com/adammhaile/Elpis/issues/213
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18:04 ๐Ÿ”— JAA Move that to -ot, or better yet, somewhere else entirely.
18:21 ๐Ÿ”— Raccoon :'( ok
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22:43 ๐Ÿ”— kpcyrd plug the audio out into your audio in
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23:21 ๐Ÿ”— Raccoon kpcyrd, do streaming radio services encode track and artist information the same way DFM does? :P
23:25 ๐Ÿ”— JAA Again, -ot or wherever, but not here.

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