#archiveteam-bs 2020-09-08,Tue

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03:04 🔗 SketchCow Oh hey JAA
03:04 🔗 SketchCow I had someone come out of nowhere and asked why Hackint and not this other thing
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03:05 🔗 SketchCow "I have the vague question: Why Hackint and not OFTC?"
03:05 🔗 SketchCow Me: Because JAA, who does a lion's share of work, prefers HACKINT
03:05 🔗 SketchCow Me: But it seems many people prefer "Not EFNet"
03:06 🔗 SketchCow That is all
03:06 🔗 SketchCow Maybe you have a reason for Hackint over OFTC.
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09:34 🔗 JAA SketchCow: Essentially, there wasn't much if any discussion about OFTC. Yeah, that's also a good network as far as I know. At the risk of splitting hairs, their focus is FOSS development, so hackint's purpose (hacker culture) seems a bit closer to AT's main mission. Also, hackint staff has been very welcoming from the start, and I'm not sure if we could expect the same from OFTC (~4 times larger,
09:34 🔗 JAA different mission). For example, hackint is willing to raise the channel join limit for us if needed, which is not something I'd expect on larger networks.
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10:29 🔗 Raccoon I will remark that hackint does show an impressive growth for a fledgling irc network, going by netsplit.de stats.
10:30 🔗 Raccoon That doesn't make me any less confused why people think it's necessary to move.
10:31 🔗 JAA Mostly the red points here: https://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/hackint_vs_EFnet
10:32 🔗 Raccoon those are the negative points?
10:33 🔗 JAA Unless you're masochistic, yes.
10:33 🔗 Raccoon yeah, the TLS issues are quite unforgivable
10:34 🔗 JAA And that list doesn't even include that the web chat thing breaks frequently and isn't fixed for weeks (making our IRC less accessible to newcomers) and some other things.
10:35 🔗 JAA I elaborated a bit on other downsides to EFnet on https://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Talk:Move_Archiveteam_to_Hackint
10:35 🔗 Raccoon all the points about nick/topic length limits and individual server diversity and sovereignty are things that racists, communists and fascists complain about. EFNet is a melting pot.
10:36 🔗 JAA Not sure if serious or trolling.
10:36 🔗 Raccoon so-so
10:36 🔗 JAA Well, let's cut out the trolling then.
10:37 🔗 Raccoon it's also so-so true though. how can server individualism, diversity, strengths and weaknesses set people off so strongly
10:37 🔗 Raccoon each bring something to the table
10:38 🔗 JAA Because it breaks shit, in particular regarding the different channel join limits and TLS configs etc.
10:39 🔗 Raccoon I did acquiesce on TLS
10:39 🔗 JAA You have your client configured to use TLS and join 25 channels. You get booted from the network because it's having one of its issues again, you reconnect, and suddenly you only get joined into 20 of the chans because that's the new server's limit, or you don't reconnect at all due to TLS.
10:39 🔗 Raccoon tor is a technical hurdle given abuse
10:40 🔗 JAA Yes, one that hackint has solved.
10:40 🔗 Raccoon indeed
10:40 🔗 Raccoon freenode's solution is to require a user to register with services (a solution efnet can't use) to at least add speedbumps to abuse
10:41 🔗 Raccoon how does hackint throttle abusing tor?
10:41 🔗 JAA Yes, and register without Tor, compromising the user's privacy.
10:42 🔗 JAA I haven't seen much abuse through Tor on hackint so far, but there are good means in place to e.g. ban all unregistered Tor users easily.
10:43 🔗 Raccoon so hackint is protected by its infancy and obscurity, which is a plus if you look at it that way
10:44 🔗 Raccoon if the owner dies of covid tomorrow, how many months before the network desolves?
10:44 🔗 JAA There isn't a single owner.
10:44 🔗 JAA It's operated by a few people from different CCC chapters.
10:45 🔗 Raccoon that's good.
10:45 🔗 JAA Whereas I have no fucking clue who even operates EFnet anymore, if anyone.
10:46 🔗 Raccoon a loose affiliation
10:46 🔗 JAA Yeah, the servers users connect to are obvious, but the hubs?
10:46 🔗 Raccoon sadly freenode was set up as a monarch under the brand of being a non-profit. now it's just a for-profit monarch
10:47 🔗 Raccoon and the just king was killed while riding his bicycle, leaving it in the hands of some random (girlfriend)?
10:47 🔗 JAA No idea about profits, but there are a number of other issues with freenode anyway.
10:48 🔗 Raccoon freenode now belongs to that one VPN. PIR?
10:49 🔗 JAA PIA/London Trust
10:49 🔗 Raccoon ^
10:49 🔗 JAA Yeah, as I said, there are many issues with Freenode.
10:51 🔗 Raccoon But I value the strenght of EFNet's loose affiliation agility and resilience to time. Several of the other old networks are just amazon AWS and probably one dude running it all himself
10:53 🔗 Raccoon (which does make it easier to make every server an identical clone, all with the same settings)
10:55 🔗 Kaz resilience to time? shit, this thing doesn't even have resilience to a slight network blip
10:56 🔗 Raccoon Kaz: Do you remembr the conversation you were having during the last blip? I already forgot.
10:56 🔗 Raccoon But I'm still here 22 years later.
10:56 🔗 JAA Stable performance over time! It's always been shit!
10:56 🔗 Kaz hackint gives us a platform that _works_, we don't have to build extra tools around it
10:56 🔗 Raccoon JAA, heh
10:56 🔗 Kaz nobody should need to micromanage ops in a channel, I've lost count of the amount of channels we've lost due to unstable servers/netsplits/etc
10:57 🔗 Raccoon > permissive policy (anything legal per German and Dutch laws is allowed)
10:57 🔗 Kaz efnet doesn't pass the "if I send a message, I'm pretty sure other people will see it" test, which is a pretty low bar
10:57 🔗 Raccoon isn't German law extremely critical about content involving illegal thoughts and illegal speach
10:57 🔗 Raccoon with some pretty draconian rules defining both
10:57 🔗 Kaz is that a question or a statement
10:58 🔗 Raccoon yes/no
10:58 🔗 JAA As long as you don't spout Nazi bullshit, you're good.
10:58 🔗 Kaz because you're trying to make it one, because the other puts the burden of proof on you.
10:58 🔗 Raccoon would archiving a site that was shut down by the German government be an unlawful activity?
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10:58 🔗 JAA No, why would it?
10:58 🔗 Raccoon Because you're interfering with government
10:58 🔗 JAA Besides, discussing about the archival sure wouldn't.
10:59 🔗 JAA Except you're not?
10:59 🔗 Raccoon Coordinating a conspiracy group meant to usurp government intervention
10:59 🔗 Kaz if I drive my car, by definition I am causing damage to the road (over time) and therefore interfering with government
10:59 🔗 JAA A 'site shut down by the government' means the government banned operating the site, not accessing it.
10:59 🔗 Raccoon to take information off the internet
11:00 🔗 JAA Cf. linksunten
11:00 🔗 Raccoon Kaz: the government designed road repair policy specifically to repair the damage you made with your tax dollars, because you asked them to
11:01 🔗 Raccoon They also invented illegal thought and speech policies to protect the public from bad ideas
11:01 🔗 Raccoon Make no mistake, the ideas themselves are considered to be bad and unlawful under German law
11:01 🔗 JAA Where are you from, Raccoon?
11:01 🔗 Raccoon not just the domain name or the hosting company.
11:02 🔗 Raccoon JAA: I'm worldy!
11:04 🔗 Raccoon That would be my concern anyways. If activities on the network are subject to German law, then the activities engaged there must not attempt to coordinate against and usurp government intervention
11:05 🔗 Kaz how is that different to any other network
11:05 🔗 Kaz if I get arrested (UK) I don't think I can use 'yeah but I was planning this all of efnet and it's legal there' as a defence
11:06 🔗 Raccoon Kaz: You shut one efnet server down, nobody cares. If the German government complains to the King of EFnet, nobody cares.
11:06 🔗 Raccoon You're not asked to leave the network.
11:07 🔗 JAA It's interesting that you only talk about Germany and ignore the fact that ~half of hackint is hosted in the Netherlands.
11:07 🔗 Raccoon I don't know about Dutch laws as much
11:07 🔗 JAA Well, you don't seem to know too much about German ones either.
11:08 🔗 Raccoon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
11:09 🔗 Kaz at the end of the day, nobody's forcing you to come to hackint. If you want to discuss things that you feel are so important that the german government are going to come after you, maybe you need to find somewhere better to do it anyway
11:09 🔗 Kaz May I suggest screaming into a pillow
11:10 🔗 Raccoon Nooo! I was so set on that becoming an important aspect of my life, too!
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11:17 🔗 Raccoon I wonder why SketchCow doesn't just set up an efnet.textfiles.com server, longer topic length, no channel join limits, and everyone here can connect to it to be isolated from netsplits
11:18 🔗 Raccoon they'd let him link easy peasy
11:18 🔗 JAA If you figure out who 'they' are in the first place.
11:19 🔗 Raccoon yeah
11:19 🔗 JAA And it says somewhere that server applications are only accepted when there is a need in a particular region, i.e. the current servers can't handle the load.
11:19 🔗 JAA And it'd introduce a single point of failure.
11:19 🔗 JAA And it'd add more stuff to our already undermaintained infrastructure.
11:19 🔗 JAA And it wouldn't solve the services issue.
11:19 🔗 Raccoon i mean, it's just a ratbox server. set it and forget it
11:20 🔗 JAA Yes, that's EFnet in a nutshell and why it sucks so much.
11:21 🔗 Raccoon i still think that's its strength. but my values are reflective of a bygone era, or just observation over time
11:21 🔗 Raccoon anyway, later on
11:22 🔗 JAA Yeah, the late 80s when you didn't really have to worry about much on the internet and could run everything unsecured (hence why the IRC protocol didn't have authentication mechanisms for ages).
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15:22 🔗 SketchCow The hard part of me running an IRC server is getting all the blood off it after I shoot myself
15:24 🔗 SmileyG Is that before or after massacaring the users?
15:25 🔗 SketchCow You know, anytime anyone talks to Racoon for an extended period of time, it's like you're playing Zelda and one of your hearts went away
15:27 🔗 SketchCow I think your answer, JAA, is perfect.
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15:29 🔗 Smiley Like other things from the 80's, such as clippy, they should all go away?
15:30 🔗 JAA :-)
15:50 🔗 prq SketchCow I'm pretty sure I saw you in that movie that just came out about action park.
15:50 🔗 Arcorann_ Clippy was introduced in Office 97
15:55 🔗 SketchCow Yes, that was me.
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16:30 🔗 Smiley yeah but he couldn't start working til he was 16...
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