#archiveteam-ot 2019-11-12,Tue

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06:04 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So furthering from #archiveteam-bs
06:04 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Any IRC client recommendations?
06:16 πŸ”— Raccoon what's your favorite OS desktop / terminal
06:20 πŸ”— Mateon1 HP_Archiv: I haven't seen the -bs discussion, but: I used to care, but now, honestly, I gave up on looking for the "perfect" IRC client, and just switched to thunderbird because it's convenient
06:21 πŸ”— Mateon1 And yes, thunderbird does have an IRC client, a lot of people don't know about that.
06:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I strictly use Windows
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06:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv My only concern for an IRC client would be privacy. As long it's reputable/widely used and development is still there, I really have no other preference
06:23 πŸ”— markedL I'm not saying much because I don't know Windows. I'll say in general, you'll use the first one unless/until you find something you can't stand.
06:24 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So something like HexChat or mIRC.... thoughts?
06:24 πŸ”— markedL I heard mIRC is nagware now, idk for sure myself.
06:24 πŸ”— Mateon1 If you already use thunderbird for email, I suggest using its built-in chat option. It has conversation history for each channel like you're looking for. I have never used mIRC, but can recommend HexChat.
06:25 πŸ”— Mateon1 I don't remember whether hexchat can access history from inside the application, but I'm pretty sure it keeps logs
06:25 πŸ”— markedL in the msft store, the free trial is full version.
06:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No. I use Gmail for email. All of this just to participate in the #archiveteam chat...?
06:26 πŸ”— markedL $10 version is $10 donation
06:26 πŸ”— markedL for hexchat
06:27 πŸ”— Raccoon Windows: Famously mIRC. It's the widest used, actively developed, 24 years -- It is shareware, only 32-bit, single thread. Second option I'd suggest is AdiIRC, modeled after mIRC, supports mIRC's unique script language, technically better than mIRC. Hexchat is popular, pretty lacking, based on Xchat. I understand that IceChat is still being developed, hobby developer.
06:27 πŸ”— markedL which is simple to setup?
06:28 πŸ”— Raccoon Freenode channels to join: ##mirc #adiirc #hexchat #icechat
06:28 πŸ”— Raccoon no irc client is simple to set up :)
06:28 πŸ”— markedL webchat ;)
06:28 πŸ”— Raccoon heh
06:28 πŸ”— Mateon1 Most IRC clients are simple to "set up", in the sense of install, run, join network/channel, but you'll probably fiddle with the settings for years
06:29 πŸ”— Mateon1 I gave up on doing that and am now using mostly default thunderbird settings.
06:29 πŸ”— Raccoon Thunderbird still around is it?
06:29 πŸ”— HP_Archiv All I wanted to do was to further participate in the #archiveteam / #archiveteam-bs chat to better keep tabs on previous messages/history
06:30 πŸ”— HP_Archiv eg: scroll back if I sign out for a day and see missed messages
06:30 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: Maybe you should consider IRCCloud or Mibbit or Matrix or keep using that basic webchat you're currently on
06:30 πŸ”— Mateon1 Ah, if you mean messages that were said while you were logged off, that an inherent limitation of the IRC protocol. You can buy a service like IRCCloud that stays logged on and you can join and look through the messages at any time
06:31 πŸ”— Mateon1 Wait, does IRCCloud have a free plan? I need to look that up
06:31 πŸ”— Raccoon yeah, if you want persistence, you'll have to generally pay a subscription to someone, or install ZNC on a remote terminal you can access, or install Wechat or Irssi on a terminal someplace
06:31 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @Mateon1: yeah that's what I mean.
06:31 πŸ”— Raccoon I don't think they do
06:32 πŸ”— Raccoon If persistence were free, then IRC would be filled with 10 billion trillion sock puppets
06:32 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Hm, well that just sucks, heh. No, I'm not paying for an IRC chat client... think I might just stick to the web client for now. I appreciate the input though
06:32 πŸ”— markedL https://www.irccloud.com/pricing
06:32 πŸ”— markedL just use hexchat
06:32 πŸ”— Raccoon or adiirc
06:33 πŸ”— markedL it doesn't matter really, there's lots of free ones, but webchat is the worst
06:33 πŸ”— Raccoon technically, i think adiirc can be called superior in pretty much every category. i just have trouble having used mIRC for 22 years
06:34 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'll check out mIRC since it's widely used
06:34 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Thank you ^^
06:34 πŸ”— Raccoon Kinda wish I spent more time on a terminal so I could really enjoy Wechat
06:35 πŸ”— Mateon1 If I'm stuck in a terminal I just launch irssi, but then I always get stuck in the configuration rabbit hole
06:35 πŸ”— Raccoon heh
06:35 πŸ”— Mateon1 I should really clean up all the dotfiles that are spread out across all my computers
06:36 πŸ”— Raccoon and sorry, that was WeeChat freenode #weechat
06:38 πŸ”— Raccoon Whatever happened to Mozilla's ChatZilla client
06:38 πŸ”— Raccoon did they just roll it into Thunderbird?
06:40 πŸ”— Mateon1 I don't remember ChatZilla
06:40 πŸ”— Mateon1 If it was the XMPP client, then yes, I think so
06:40 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Since you both have been helpful with this, maybe you can assist with something else. I'd like to get full access to ingest a site or sites into archivebot with special commands. I was told there is a voice or something else. How do I do this?
06:40 πŸ”— Raccoon I don't think it was, but I dunno. It used to be FireFox's default suggestion for irc:// links
06:40 πŸ”— Raccoon in the before times I guess, now.
06:41 πŸ”— Mateon1 You need to be an op to give voice, they are the people with an @ sign before their usernames. I'm not sure what the protocol for that is here.
06:41 πŸ”— HP_Archiv What is an op?
06:42 πŸ”— Mateon1 Basically a channel's admin/moderator
06:42 πŸ”— Raccoon the people with the dead worms next to their names
06:42 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Heh
06:42 πŸ”— Raccoon or maybe a green dot depending on your client
06:43 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Okay, well since I have an on-going project with associated websites I want archived and ingested into the WBM (and eventually IA) I'd like to get privileges and become an OP.
06:43 πŸ”— HP_Archiv How do I do this and not rely on those with @ in their handle every time I want to submit a site?
06:44 πŸ”— Mateon1 We're probably not the people to ask, then. I'm just doing a small archiving project in between university work.
06:44 πŸ”— Raccoon Someone like JAA maybe has a good primer for you to dive into
06:45 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @JAA: Can you assist?
06:45 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Thanks guys
06:45 πŸ”— markedL every site needs a different technique
06:46 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Oh, so it's all custom. That makes sense I guess
06:46 πŸ”— markedL the 3 people you were asking for help from should be asleep now
06:46 πŸ”— Raccoon and to that end, every site usually gets an irc channel of its own.
06:46 πŸ”— markedL so patience goes a long way here
06:46 πŸ”— Raccoon eg, the death of Yahoo Groups is #yahoosucks
06:46 πŸ”— markedL I don't remember what site you were working on
06:46 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm very new at all of this, I appreciate you taking the time to provide details ^^
06:46 πŸ”— markedL but if they said the loaded in AB it does it's thing automatically
06:47 πŸ”— Raccoon There is also #internetarchive for IA/WBM
06:47 πŸ”— markedL getting voice ops to archivebot sounds like a desirable, but then you have to babysit the jobs you submit
06:48 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I was trying to archive the entirety of HP-Games.net which is a Potter-games site dedicated to modding. However, there's a section dedicated entirely to Mods/Custom maps for these games. But each specific map has outlinks to a hosted Google Drive or Yandex download. And not only do I want to archive all of these pages, but also download/capture and re-upload into archivebot. Was told in #archiveteam-bs that this would be tricky
06:49 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And I have no idea how to do this ^^
06:49 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: is the site going under?
06:49 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'll just link as an example: https://hp-games.net/all-mods
06:50 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And no, technically not. But it could be slapped with a dmca request at any moment considering the games are licensed under WB/EA
06:50 πŸ”— Raccoon I understand there are infact client downloaders for Google Drive, Yandex, etc cloud hosting services
06:52 πŸ”— Raccoon i assume if wget can't slurp them, then you can compile a list of urls to feed to a different software that does
06:52 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I guess what I'm picturing in my mind is a near-exact replica of this entire site eventually captured and put on IA, where the download links you see on that page would function just as they do in the live version of the site. eg; you click on a mod map files and the IA prompts for the download of that particular map file.
06:52 πŸ”— Raccoon maybe. That's an #internetarchive thing
06:52 πŸ”— Raccoon I know you can also find media downloads in IA for full compilations rather than having to wade through an old half-broken replica of a site
06:53 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Hm, okay. The problem is that HP-Games.net doesn't actually host the files. It outlinks to online storage. So I'm trying to port over the site, while reconfiguring how the files are hosted
06:53 πŸ”— Raccoon with torrent links and the whole shebang
06:53 πŸ”— Raccoon so it's your site
06:53 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Not my site. But I good friends with the person who maintains it
06:53 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And yes, do have permission to do this
06:54 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm good friends*
06:54 πŸ”— Raccoon i'm not driving at that
06:54 πŸ”— Raccoon just wondering why you don't swipe his harddrive and upload it to IA
06:54 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Heh.. One caveat, he's in Russia and I am in California
06:55 πŸ”— HP_Archiv We're part of a much larger HP Modding community on Discord. But he's had this site up for years
06:55 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And I'm actually working on a much bigger project than just archiving the site - digital preservation of the early 00's Harry Potter PC games
06:55 πŸ”— Raccoon Operation Red Sparrow House Elf
06:55 πŸ”— Raccoon maybe utilizing weather balloons, or owls
06:56 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Lol
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06:56 πŸ”— Raccoon I would try to keep in mind that the WBM is not a web hosting service
06:56 πŸ”— astrid yes :)
06:57 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm aware - but #archiveteam creates backups of sites all the time. Why wouldn't this be a valid canidate?
06:57 πŸ”— Raccoon ideally, only le crem de la Cremlin finds its way there :)
06:58 πŸ”— HP_Archiv candidate*
06:58 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I mean the project has its own merits - I have several Warner executives and one person out of the Library of Congress helping with the bigger aspect of the project.
06:58 πŸ”— Raccoon I mean, I dunno. It's just dirty when the site developer is himself involved with finding a way to avoid hosting his own content
06:59 πŸ”— astrid is it?
06:59 πŸ”— Raccoon isn't it?
06:59 πŸ”— astrid so the scenario is, someone wants to put something in the archive instead of deleting it?
06:59 πŸ”— astrid or am i reading the room wrong
06:59 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I disagree. Though I'm not a heavy gamer at all, open-access and copyright issues generally speaking force people to get involved in offshore hosting
07:00 πŸ”— Raccoon "I don't want to pay for AWS, and Google Drive is being a pain. Host it for me from the wayback machine"
07:00 πŸ”— Raccoon that was my impression
07:00 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Specifically, these particular Potter PC games from 2001-2005 are bound up in a 3-way copyright struggle between JK Rowling, Electronic Arts, and Warner Brothers. And they haven't been remastered.
07:00 πŸ”— astrid IA and Google Drive are not replacements for each other, no, Raccoon
07:00 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No, @Racoon, he hasn't uploaded them to Drive.
07:01 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Those are different modders/owners of files. Each is a different Google Drive account from various people
07:01 πŸ”— Raccoon I see
07:01 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Or a one-off backup to Yandex as well
07:01 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm looking to backup the entire site w/outlinked mod files in case of a copyright takedown. Simple as that
07:02 πŸ”— astrid i dont think im qualified to issue an Official Archiveteam Elder Council Opinion or whatever about this today
07:02 πŸ”— * astrid goes back to her hacking
07:02 πŸ”— Raccoon I don't think official statements are allowed in -ot anyway
07:02 πŸ”— astrid who's the one wearing the snail hat
07:02 πŸ”— Raccoon dead worm!
07:02 πŸ”— astrid lol
07:02 πŸ”— astrid it's a snail hat :(
07:03 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @astrid, since you're an OP, can you assist with this?
07:03 πŸ”— astrid what's up HP_Archiv
07:04 πŸ”— Raccoon dang, what was the name of that open source cloud storage download manager program I used ages ago
07:04 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I want to archive the entire HP-games.net site. But in doing so, example this page, https://hp-games.net/all-mods , want to all archive all outlinked files
07:04 πŸ”— Raccoon that would be a start for personally yanking all the remotely hosted files to your local machine, to tidy up and organize
07:04 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The outlinked files are from various people, hosting files from their own private GDrive or as a backup with Yandex.
07:05 πŸ”— Raccoon along with a README file and other metadatas, pop in a zip and upload to #internetarchive
07:05 πŸ”— astrid HP_Archiv: this sounds like a big collection that could do with some manual curation from you, so download it all and make it a nice presentable collection of items created with https://archive.org/upload
07:05 πŸ”— Raccoon what she said
07:06 πŸ”— astrid an "item" can contain one or many files, whatever you think should belong together forever
07:06 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That's not a problem. I can do that. However, how do superimpose once the site is archived on IA eg: have the same outlinks point to the hosted collection of curated files?
07:06 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Or is that simply beyond the scope of site archiving?
07:06 πŸ”— astrid there isn't a way to link the two nicely.
07:06 πŸ”— astrid technical limitation
07:07 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I was afraid of that. Hm
07:08 πŸ”— Raccoon otrrlibrary.org has, since around 2012, slowly been curating its archive of Old Time Radio programmes into tidy collections, uploading to IA, then simply pointing to that link
07:08 πŸ”— dhyan_nat has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
07:08 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Oh well. I'll go ahead and get all of the files together nicely. @astrid can you please ingest hp-games.net and then https://hp-games.net/all-mods URLs so they're archived correctly?
07:08 πŸ”— astrid that's a lot of work and it's nearly midnight and i'm not sober
07:09 πŸ”— HP_Archiv This ^^ is why I wanted op voice command
07:09 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No worries
07:09 πŸ”— markedL I get you're in CA but assume half the people here are in Europe so you'll get better answers earlier in the day
07:09 πŸ”— astrid markedL: who are you talking to
07:09 πŸ”— HP_Archiv He's talking to me
07:10 πŸ”— astrid o
07:10 πŸ”— astrid sorry
07:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm based out of California, actually not that far away from the IA's HQ
07:10 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: here's one such example of what people upload to IA which was previously hosted elsewheres on the web. https://archive.org/details/OTRR_X_Minus_One_Singles
07:10 πŸ”— markedL is OTRR out of copyright in general?
07:10 πŸ”— astrid i personally would have made that item into 150 separate items, but, hey, i'm not them
07:11 πŸ”— Raccoon and it's sister archive (including more technically superior minutia and archivist materials) https://archive.org/details/OTRR_Certified_X_Minus_One
07:11 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @Raccoon, thank you. This is a good example
07:11 πŸ”— Raccoon the latter example has a much more structured directory
07:12 πŸ”— Raccoon astrid: seems to work in the IA player, and they did it in 2008
07:12 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So we, the community helping me with this massive project, have gone ahead and put together a 'working archive directory' for these games
07:12 πŸ”— HP_Archiv https://archive.org/details/archive_browser_directory_structure
07:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv https://archive.org/details/@harry_potter_games_preservation_project
07:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv It's a work in progress *shrugs*
07:13 πŸ”— astrid so here's another collection that i curated ... i took these 25k pdfs and put one per item, and got a collection created by IA admins to hold it and make it look all nice https://archive.org/details/etsi_standards
07:14 πŸ”— Raccoon markedL: OTRR is not out of copyright until another couple decades, unfortunately :(
07:14 πŸ”— astrid i need to freshen the collection sometime, there are a few thousand more pdfs published by them now
07:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Good examples ^^ I'd like to get the polished collection-look you have going there. Any critiques on the pages I linked that you guys can offer up?
07:15 πŸ”— Raccoon markedL: audio works have now been reformatted (as of 2019) to 95 years +5 for the era of these shows
07:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv (Bearing in mind, I know it's late where most of you are, heh)
07:16 πŸ”— Raccoon (OTR is also kind of unique, because the licenses are often so spread out thin, that there's really no single rights holder to bully people around, and also weird things to do with federal funding)
07:17 πŸ”— Raccoon ((things aired for the armed forces, the mutual broadcast system, etc)
07:17 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'd welcome any critiquing for the directory I've put together thus far ^^
07:18 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: btw, you will want this Windows program. VoidTool's Everything @ https://www.voidtools.com/downloads/
07:19 πŸ”— Raccoon you can't curate an archive without it, not really.
07:19 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Open source?
07:20 πŸ”— Raccoon I think yes, or maybe just an API
07:20 πŸ”— Raccoon I've been using it for a decade at least
07:20 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And how does that differ from, say: Invenio, Islandora, Haiku, Samvera, Dspace ?
07:20 πŸ”— Raccoon I never heard of any of those 5
07:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSpace
07:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I come to the table, here, in framing everything in an academic context
07:21 πŸ”— Raccoon If you have something better than Windows Explorer, you're already ahead of the game
07:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv These are open-sourced software that are used in academic/institutional settings
07:22 πŸ”— Raccoon I'm just talking about walking your own filesystem and directory structures with a meaningful interface
07:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Agreed, just surprised nobody knows of these in here.
07:22 πŸ”— Raccoon robust filtering, regular expression patterns, etc
07:22 πŸ”— Raccoon bulk renaming
07:23 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Hm, okay
07:23 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I guess I'm looking to do this in this most proper way possible, and use the same tools that an institution might (regardless of obvious overkill)
07:24 πŸ”— Raccoon find all folders that DO have both a .PNG and a README file?: child:.png child:README
07:24 πŸ”— Raccoon stuff like that
07:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I get what you're saying ^^
07:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No criticisms or constructive critiquing on my the directory I've put together?
07:26 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And yeah - they are only computer games. So I can hear the eye rolling, heh. But if people *really* want things to be around indefinitely, you *really do* have to dedicate an awful lot of time and resources to doing things correctly
07:26 πŸ”— Raccoon sorry, I must have missed what you were asking. You mean your upload from August 25th?
07:27 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No worries, and yes ^^
07:27 πŸ”— Raccoon computer games are culturally significant. especially the older ones that took skill to build
07:27 πŸ”— Raccoon I'm all over preventing copyright-driven oblivion
07:28 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I'm glad we share the same opinion. Agreed, Raccoon. It's these Potter games specifically that I want to see curated and preserved. We're looking for the holy grail so to speak, the prototype source archive for HP 1, Sorcerer's Stone, from 2001.
07:28 πŸ”— Raccoon hmm, dang. IA doesn't let me peek inside .7z files
07:28 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Ah, I took of care that. You'll want to view the html file
07:29 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Again, a lot of still needs work. For some reason, the Google Drive export create a double-copy of each files hency while you'll see duplicates in the tree
07:29 πŸ”— Raccoon oh, i found the nav
07:30 πŸ”— HP_Archiv ^^
07:31 πŸ”— Raccoon I'd say that looks good to me. Could maybe use more per-directory README files that gives a tweet-length description of every file/.zip
07:32 πŸ”— Raccoon Or maybe like astrid was saying, smaller clumps, since 14.4G can be unwieldly to the average researcher
07:33 πŸ”— astrid when clumping you don't want to put more than about 10G in a single item
07:33 πŸ”— astrid when you are making it presentable to humans, you want it to be fairly small
07:33 πŸ”— astrid think one of those narrow boxes of loose papers on a bookshelf
07:33 πŸ”— astrid not the whole aisle of books
07:34 πŸ”— Raccoon I use the walmart plastic tub stratographic filing system, myself.
07:34 πŸ”— HP_Archiv There was a meme posted a while back in the Archivist Think Tank FB group... read something like: First person, 'But nobody reads the damn labels..." second person, But I have so much knowledge to give!"
07:35 πŸ”— HP_Archiv :)
07:35 πŸ”— HP_Archiv These are good suggestions though
07:35 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Thank you both ^^
07:36 πŸ”— Raccoon Hopefully you can forget all the nonsense I made up on the spot
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07:36 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So I've done other work, unrelated on family films. If you think 10 or 14GBs is a lot... https://archive.org/details/taloccifamilyfilms
07:37 πŸ”— HP_Archiv When you digitized moving image film correctly into DPX and TIFF sequencing, file and size add up pretty quickly
07:37 πŸ”— Raccoon I've delved into sharing terabytes, locally / regionally anyway, it's not necessarily pretty
07:38 πŸ”— HP_Archiv file number*
07:39 πŸ”— HP_Archiv No, it's not. And I keep hearing that .DPX is too cumbersome a format for film preservation. Because the repo's are absolutely huge
07:39 πŸ”— Raccoon if I could magic one thing into existence, it would be a form of offline-journaling filesystem for syncing two drives together for magical collaboration
07:39 πŸ”— Raccoon built into the FS
07:39 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That directory of family films I linked above, uncompressed is just under 2TBs, for about 40 minutes of Super 8 film from the 70's...
07:39 πŸ”— astrid HP_Archiv: we try to keep items under 10g because IA can't split a single item across multiple disk drives. so the bigger items get, the trickier the job of the auto-balancing disk allocater gets
07:40 πŸ”— astrid and keep in mind that yes if you make an item bigger than a normal drive it'll cause issues
07:40 πŸ”— astrid 10g is big enough for most uses, and not a hard limit
07:41 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Well the thing is, @astrid when you have 40 minutes of film, right, and in film preservation you have each frame representing a single file, a scan.. you can end up with hundreds of thousands of files. In my case, about 90,000 DPX and 90,000 TIFF files
07:41 πŸ”— Raccoon also, if these are "old games" for "old systems", then probably 4GB is too large
07:41 πŸ”— astrid yeah sure i'm not saying it's bad
07:41 πŸ”— astrid i'm explaining why i said 10g
07:42 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Oh I know, I'm just furthering explaining why those films are so large in upload size.
07:42 πŸ”— astrid i'm not stupid, i can see that it's a frame scan
07:42 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Digitization is not the catch-all solution for film preservation, clearly... you can re-fresh millions of files every so often when you have one particular film resulting in, say, 30TB's of DPX files...
07:43 πŸ”— HP_Archiv can't* refresh*
07:43 πŸ”— HP_Archiv For those films, I actually handed over a physical drive with copies of the data to the IA vs uploading over the internet. It wouldn't have been practical to upload.
07:44 πŸ”— HP_Archiv But I had the films scanned in 2K, and in theory Super 8 can be scanned even higher in 5K. Could you imagine the size output? Incredible
07:45 πŸ”— Raccoon are TIFFs necessary anymore?
07:45 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Good question. Depends on your needs. I had the scanhouse I used scan to both DPX, TIFF and ProRes files simply because they offered it and, at the time, I thought that the more varied formats the better
07:46 πŸ”— Raccoon are they uncompressed TIFFs or LZW compressed at least?
07:48 πŸ”— Raccoon I wonder if your scan house would merely convert the single scan to the other 2 file formats, or if the guy just punched the machine to scan for 2nd and 3rd times
07:48 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Everything is uncompressed. And actually, the technician at the IA who helped me with this, didn't upload correctly. The films there are in 2 reels. So for each, I had the scanhouse scan both reels in DPX, both reels in TIFF, and both to 2 ProRes files
07:49 πŸ”— Raccoon oh gee, so you have 3 scan passes
07:49 πŸ”— HP_Archiv He uploaded reel 1, in dpx and reel 2, in TIFF, when in reality, he should've uploaded R 1 & 2 in DPX and the a second copy of each in TIFF
07:49 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yup
07:49 πŸ”— Raccoon I wonder if that opens up any further opportunity for remastering
07:50 πŸ”— Raccoon image stacking
07:50 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yeah, it does. And that's a really great question @Racoon
07:50 πŸ”— HP_Archiv DPX is, by right, supposed to be edited in Final Cut for example. I simply don't have the computer resources to do that sort of mini-movie remastering, nor that technique or skills
07:50 πŸ”— Raccoon "two out of three scans don't have that hair right there"
07:51 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Heh ^^
07:52 πŸ”— Raccoon I was a dipshit and brought a brought several rolls of 20 year old 35mm to be developed... at Walmart
07:52 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I spent the better part of the past decade trying to do all of this, self-taught. A lot of time researching, reaching out to institutions and fielding answers from credible/helpful people in film preservation
07:52 πŸ”— Raccoon The minimum wage employee seemed non plussed about blackening all of them
07:53 πŸ”— HP_Archiv It came down to http://cinelicious.tv in downtown LA vs https://www.gammaraydigital.com/ in Boston, Mass. I chose GammaRay because they were a bit cheaper and I lived in Boston at the time as well.
07:55 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Both have big-name clients but GammaRay was great. It was a pricey experience. But ever since I had this done 2014, I've been re-migrating data. All those files. So in an effort to open-source old family films, I donated a copy of everything (well almost everything, as explained by that goof-up the IA technician did) to IA and took some of the pressure of re-migrating data every so often
07:56 πŸ”— HP_Archiv *shrugs* I was born in the early 90's. These films are of a parent and siblings and my grandparents. When I say I come to the table wanting things to be done correctly, in an academic context, I wasn't kidding :)
07:56 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Do you have the negatives? If so, you can always get them done correctly
07:57 πŸ”— Raccoon yes. the negatives are developed and I put it under a 20k dpi scanner on the university. there's a vague shadow of the former images
07:58 πŸ”— Raccoon did you ever make a modest useful cut of your films, so they can be shared on social media
08:00 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yes, aside from viewing on IA video player directly, I uploaded the ProRes/Quicktime files (which are smaller in size at around 30GBs each) to a YouTube channel
08:01 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So the films can be viewed easily. It's the raw, master data that a pain to keep alive
08:01 πŸ”— Raccoon indeed.
08:02 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I have various backups in place. But in any archives work, the question that anyone in working in this field will bring up is, 'What are saving at the end of the day, and how many resources can we put towards saving it?"
08:02 πŸ”— Raccoon hell, it's a pain to keep simple cans of film if Universal Studios is any indication. Don't worry about oxygen and rot, they always catch fire long before they turn to dust
08:02 πŸ”— HP_Archiv These are old family films from the 70's. But they are a window into my lineage, a window into the past. And I can't put a price tag on that.
08:02 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That was a travesty ^^
08:03 πŸ”— Raccoon and if they don't catch fire, the BBC will melt them for the war effort
08:03 πŸ”— HP_Archiv UMG needs to be held liable, but to what extent I am not sure
08:03 πŸ”— Raccoon have the BBC melt them down :)
08:03 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Lol
08:04 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The missing Who episodes ^^
08:04 πŸ”— Raccoon guess who keeps rescuing old culturally-significant media? that's right, pirates and bootleggers
08:06 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Actually, the Super 8 film that is the source material for these films I've shared is in good shape, thankfully. No brittleness or dedegration before I came along. I sent the films to a place in Hollywood that uses commercial grade film cleaning machines. They're called Lipsner-Smith, the brand. A lot of major Hollywood studios will implement these machine
08:06 πŸ”— Raccoon If it still exists, it's probably because it was stolen before it could be destoryed.
08:06 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That's a great footnote, agreed
08:07 πŸ”— HP_Archiv In sort of the same context, getting back to the HP games for a moment, you might've noticed on the main page a mention of the 'HP 2 Prototype' - this only exists thanks to a former developer who disregarded an NDA from EA and kept a local source directory on a personal, non-work machine
08:08 πŸ”— Raccoon I'm waiting for the first 100% digitally authored book to become completely destroyed due to DRM and the expiration of license keys
08:09 πŸ”— HP_Archiv We wouldn't have had the Chamber of Secrets prototype source files if it wasn't for this person. And hence why we're after the first-ever Potter game's prototype files. It's been 17 years, and highly unlikely it exists at all
08:09 πŸ”— Raccoon nice
08:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv But I and others are in communication with several WB executives, one former head of licensing who oversaw the Potter game development specifically, who expressed interest/piqued curiosity regarding the nature of the project, since it's altruistic
08:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yes ^^
08:10 πŸ”— Raccoon I shared files from old game betas (c2001) on old drive backups, that helped people recreate parts of the Asheron's Call game, which there is now an emulation server
08:11 πŸ”— Raccoon If you follow WB you might have heard about the particular outrage over this game
08:11 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The person out of the LoC is in the audio/visual department, where they have a modest workflow for video game preservation. Quoting him, 'The Library of Congress is very much interested in participating in conversations regarding acquisition of video/computer game prototype or development-related digital assets.'
08:11 πŸ”— Raccoon WB went on a mad tirade trying to get the emulator shut down and the developers arrested
08:11 πŸ”— HP_Archiv I have not heard this, but it's not surprising. We have been walking a fine line for who to reach out, and who not to.
08:12 πŸ”— Raccoon but then there are success stories like Subspace aka Continuum that even made its way to Steam. "Illegally"
08:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv If you ever hear of HP Sorcerer's Stone PC game proto/dev file or anything related to development files, please get in touch. On that IA page for the Potter games there are emails there should you ever hear or see anything in passing.
08:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv :_
08:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv :) *
08:13 πŸ”— Raccoon That game is split at least 4, 5 or 6 ways and nobody really knows who owns it after a dozen mergers and property splits
08:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv ^^ this
08:14 πŸ”— Raccoon Virgin Games probably has a nugget of license
08:14 πŸ”— Raccoon in some tiny foreign country
08:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv So the first 3 HP games were contracted out for dev under EA, but through a sub-company called KnowWonder. Which eventually folded, was acquired by a company called, Amaze Entertainment, which folded too, and was bought out by a now-defunct Foundation 9.
08:15 πŸ”— Raccoon I'll keep my ear out
08:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The copyright licensing angles are such a bitch, it's not even funny
08:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Thank you :)
08:16 πŸ”— Raccoon One of the funny things about SubSpace is that part of the networking side it got sold to... I dunno what order... FAST, KaZaA, and Skype (eBay/Microsoft?)
08:16 πŸ”— Raccoon Somebody owns the peer connect tech at least
08:17 πŸ”— Raccoon doubt anybody remembers
08:18 πŸ”— HP_Archiv This is thing - these game studios seem to all be plagued with the same fate of closure/being gobbled up by a bigger/flashier studio or just being dissolved altogether.
08:18 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And the company assets, which would include things like game prototypes and development files, have to be hosted somewhere. I can't imagine they just mass-delete things
08:18 πŸ”— Raccoon And here's the newest thing in Video Games being erased due to license. Watch this video and you might cry yourself to sleep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTkxzQDo0ng
08:19 πŸ”— Raccoon oh. they don't mass-delete things. they just stop paying for the hosting these days
08:19 πŸ”— Raccoon or they close the offices and the contents are denatured and auctioned
08:20 πŸ”— Raccoon It's not like Sierra Online ever saved the source code to Kings Quest and Leisure Suit Larry. It was core devs that brought the disks home with them.
08:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Watching that vid now. And the thing is - the latest in our communication is from a former dev who worked on both HP 1 and HP 2. I just received the latest email from him last night, which I can share with you herem
08:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That's exactly the case with the HP 2 dev - he brought the files home with him, a perchance scenario
08:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Here's what this dev said yesterday, with name redacted for privacy of others
08:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv "here’s not one single prototype build. That trailer TCRF is comparing against used footage from several different versions of the game from the last few months of production. If you’re looking for a single snapshot of the depot from that time, or near the end, then what I had would have worked for you, but again those discs were destroyed. However you might try contacting name-redacted, who most recently worked on Blackout Club
08:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Oh, well that didn't copy. Damn IRC...
08:22 πŸ”— Raccoon You have to consider that PUBLISHING companies don't care about retaining assets for cultural significance. If a product is floundering, like it's grossing below $5 million a year to keep alive, then you send it to the chop shop to be divvied out to anyone willing to buy bits and pieces
08:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv "There’s not one single prototype build. That trailer TCRF is comparing against used footage from several different versions of the game from the last few months of production. If you’re looking for a single snapshot of the depot from that time, or near the end, then what I had would have worked for you, but again those discs were destroyed. However you might try contacting name-redacted, who most recently worked on Blackout Clu
08:22 πŸ”— Raccoon the same way you sell old car parts on ebay
08:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv "If you’re looking for a copy of the entire repo... I suspect that’s long gone. That would have been on a server at Knowwonder / Amaze Entertainment, but that company no longer exists. You’d need to find someone who worked IT, and someone who has a working copy of the source control software we used back then."
08:23 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yeah... I am realizing this ^^
08:24 πŸ”— markedL I installed hexchat. relatively easy to get started
08:24 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The trailer he's talking about was a promo that was previewed at an E3 in 2001. But there were major changes to the game prior to it's release, but post-trailer of that demo. And we're after the entire repository.
08:25 πŸ”— Raccoon markedL: there goes another 20 years of your life, poking and tweeking :)
08:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And again, just on a perchance scenario, the HP 2 dev, different person, had that entire repo for HP2 plus the entire source package for Unreal, all saved on a local disc
08:25 πŸ”— markedL so the best IRC client must be the one with no config options
08:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The odds that HP 1's proto repository exists are slim, but I still have hope, heh
08:26 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Anyway... @Raccoon it's been very nice chatting. Thank you for this ^^
08:27 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: certainly. hopefully more bits of media and resources continue to reveal themelves
08:27 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Gotta keep the faith ^^
08:27 πŸ”— Raccoon I do recommend that youtube link though. it was very enlightening, I had never even considered this was a practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTkxzQDo0ng
08:27 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Oh right, thanks. I had paused it to continue chatting. I'll watch now
08:28 πŸ”— Raccoon ++
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11:36 πŸ”— ivan if someone could manage the YouTube archiving better than me in #youtubearchive that would give me more time to write the code that needs to be written
11:36 πŸ”— ivan I threw in a lot of channels and some of them don't really need to be archived
11:38 πŸ”— ivan channel popularity is not the best metric as it doesn't discover the more interesting stuff, easier to find with searches and digging through related channels
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12:07 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @ivan, I have a very long list of YouTube channels, academic/science based. But would the archiving process simply use YouTube-dl or do you have access to the original videos through the API?
12:07 πŸ”— ivan HP_Archiv: I have access to whatever youtube-dl grabs, which is a muxed webm or mp4, and it is usually good enough
12:08 πŸ”— ivan I kinda doubt youtube serves original-quality through their API
12:08 πŸ”— ivan they had this for a subset of videos many years ago as a public format
12:08 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @Raccoon I did watch the video on Driver San Francisco. That was just great, thank you for sharing 'creators who aren't capable/worthy of curating their own art' is fitting for this overall issue of game preservation
12:08 πŸ”— ivan HP_Archiv: join #youtubearchive and !a everything soon after the # of tasks drops
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12:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv @ivan, okay. I sort of conceded a while ago that while YT DL does a good job and all, it's not *actually* the original videos, obviously. And when we're talking about *actual* digital preservation, you go to the source material. What YouTube-dl is doing is not grabbing the source material, by an edited version of it, sadly.
12:10 πŸ”— * Raccoon tries to convince ivan to switch to mp4/m4a then re-download and replace all his .webm junk ;)
12:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Just want to make sure you're aware. ^^
12:10 πŸ”— ivan _actual_ digital preservation
12:10 πŸ”— HP_Archiv but an edited*
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12:12 πŸ”— Raccoon HP_Archiv: I had to make a rationalization a long time ago, that I cannot possibly preserve every subatomic particle, and that sometimes 2500 kb/s at 1080p is 'good enough.'
12:12 πŸ”— ivan Raccoon: I agree that .webm is junk but it does allow me to save more stuff
12:12 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Beginning of the year, first learning how to use Youtube-dl, I pinged one of the main devs. Asked about this very question 'Is it really grabbing the original videos uploaded by the user?' - No. I then gave an example of film preservation. If you were going to preserve 'Gone with the Wind' in 2K or 8K resolution, you would not pull from a copy of Blu-Ray master.
12:12 πŸ”— Raccoon and certainly better than nothing. at the very least, I'll have the world's best collection of "thumbnail videos."
12:13 πŸ”— Raccoon ivan: and indeed, better than nothing.
12:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv You would source the original 35mm or 70mm physical film print that sit in the vault at MGM
12:13 πŸ”— Raccoon well, you wouldn't do that either
12:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Lol @Raccoon, yes, yes
12:13 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Agreed
12:14 πŸ”— HP_Archiv It's better than nothing is what I came to as well, not that long ago for YT DL
12:14 πŸ”— Raccoon i mean, material sources are great, but you do not possess the talent of the 40 people who worked on directing, printing, cutting and editing the final cut
12:14 πŸ”— Raccoon you could spend 100 years locked in a room with that spool of film and never come close to "Gone With The Wind"
12:15 πŸ”— HP_Archiv If you really want to split hairs, yeah, you're spot on and correct
12:15 πŸ”— Raccoon while I'm sitting pretty with my 2500 KB/s rendition ;)
12:15 πŸ”— Raccoon there's always a balance
12:16 πŸ”— HP_Archiv ^^ I posted thread on r/Datahoarder about this back in March. And the prevailing viewpoint on there among many - not all - is that YT Dl is 'digital preservation'
12:16 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The short answer is yes, but the real answer is no
12:17 πŸ”— HP_Archiv *shrugs* If it's as good as we can get, I agree, then that's all we have to work with. I just don't like this aura that surrounds it that YT Dl is the answer to preserving YouTube videos, heh
12:18 πŸ”— Raccoon it's also hard to tell after you finish shooting Gone With The Wind in a hot sweaty desert, just exactly what material is worth loading on the truck and saving, what wardrobe should go back to the local wardrobe-for-hire folks, what should be sent back to the studio, or what will fetch a price with the Smithsonian museum
12:18 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Anyway, sorry @ivan didn't mean to steal your fire. Thanks for sharing the youtubearchive link
12:19 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Lol @Raccoon, again - I can't disagree with any of that. All valid points
12:19 πŸ”— HP_Archiv It begs the question, 'Why?' for anything we regard as worthy of preservation, indeed
12:20 πŸ”— ivan don't need @ to highlight on IRC
12:20 πŸ”— Raccoon it's VERY hard to tell in advance just what will strike a chord with the audience, let alone re-write a nation's culture.
12:20 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Thanks, didn't know ^^
12:21 πŸ”— HP_Archiv And yeah, that's why the proverbial view of 'we can't save everything' always bugged me
12:22 πŸ”— Raccoon A fine example is the simple (classic, great) movie 3:10 to Yuma. Given the completely unrelated circomstance of Cuban fascism and the US embargo, it turns out that 3:10 to Yuma can become Cuba's most culturally significant film adored by all, if for no other reason than it's the only good film they had to watch for 30 years
12:22 πŸ”— Raccoon So culturally significant that Cubans now call Americans, "Yumas"
12:22 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Good example of cultural begetting culture ^^
12:23 πŸ”— HP_Archiv culture*
12:23 πŸ”— Raccoon A small town in Arizona is now the name of the peoples of a nation
12:24 πŸ”— Raccoon all because a black and white film played on rerun like M*A*S*H
12:25 πŸ”— HP_Archiv There is no limit to cultural output, it's limitless. In its rawest form, culture is a singular idea, a thought
12:26 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Each thought or idea its own thing, etc.
12:26 πŸ”— Raccoon But will we ever recover the hats they were wearing on the set of that film ;)
12:26 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Maybe having promotional stills of the show of the characters wearing said hats would be 'good enough', heh
12:27 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Or highly skilled people, like Adam Savage, re-create a particular prop, etc. Oh that reminds me - you might like this Raccoon
12:27 πŸ”— Raccoon Yeah, he's quite the craftsman
12:27 πŸ”— HP_Archiv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29SopXQfc_s
12:28 πŸ”— HP_Archiv In this talk, he goes on about this wild journey to recreate an exact replica of statue found in The Maltese Falcon
12:29 πŸ”— HP_Archiv The stuff that dreams are made of... https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/mystery-of-the-maltese-falcon
12:30 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Using your logic, the replicas are their own thing - which I would agree - also worthy of being asked the question - is this good enough, is it worthy of being preserved
12:31 πŸ”— HP_Archiv That talk he gave, though old, is really good. Worth the whole watch :) Good night ^^
12:43 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Actually, just realized that the actual Ted Talk is here, that other video from Fora.tv is edited for some reason, https://youtu.be/rEg-ZNB3qyI night
12:46 πŸ”— Raccoon that one was pretty good. very on point with the conversation at hand too :)
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12:48 πŸ”— Raccoon his 20 gig download folder is adorable though :)
12:53 πŸ”— HP_Archiv Yeah, I like how world's collide sometimes like that, very on point indeed :) And 'over 20GBs of info' that was from 2008, go figure heh
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20:04 πŸ”— Raccoon Does anyone have a sort of exhaustive list of various time and date printed format variants, and how they might classically have been used, or whether they have an ISO standard or conventional name attached to them
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irclogger-viewer