Time |
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05:35
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07:21
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SketchCow |
WHERE |
07:21
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SketchCow |
ARE |
07:21
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SketchCow |
THE |
07:21
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SketchCow |
SHARDMASTERS |
07:22
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SketchCow |
I need you to work with closure. I need you to start assigning items to shards |
07:22
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bwn |
would itemlists from census be helpful? |
07:22
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SketchCow |
Somewhat |
07:22
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bwn |
https://archive.org/download/archiveteam_census_2016 |
07:22
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SketchCow |
We need to work on these tomorrow |
07:26
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07:28
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SketchCow |
Tomorrow |
07:28
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SketchCow |
We appointed three shardmasters. I expect to hear from them tomorrow or I will find replacements. |
07:28
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SketchCow |
The three shardmasters are HCross2 Kaz and Jess |
07:28
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SketchCow |
JesseW |
07:29
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|
SketchCow |
Tomorrow or I move faster |
07:32
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HCross2 |
Here I am |
07:34
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SketchCow |
Did you get credentials from Closure to begin assigning shard sets |
07:35
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HCross2 |
I havent |
07:35
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|
SketchCow |
We need you to do that. |
07:35
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SketchCow |
And then, just start working on these. It's file based, not items based. |
07:36
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|
SketchCow |
Use the Wiki or Google Docs to make them, if you have to. |
07:36
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|
SketchCow |
I will contribute all the time needed to suggest collections of higher priority |
07:36
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|
SketchCow |
I will also begin talking behind the scenes about how to handle web grabs (likely by making encrypted/password protected chunks) |
07:39
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HCross2 |
Will do. I'll go over all the documents now |
07:45
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HCross2 |
closure: 15 mins from work now. When I get in, I'll send you an SSH key |
07:53
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SketchCow |
Good. |
07:53
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|
SketchCow |
I think I should start a slack too |
08:05
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SketchCow |
Didn't want to wait. Slack created. |
08:05
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SketchCow |
Slacks that are free are always a pain in the ass. I am inviting the shardmasters, closure and then in the future we will use it to reach out to people who have access to a lot of disk space but just don't deal with IRC as much as slack |
08:17
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08:17
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SketchCow |
So please coordinate with closure when he wakes (I can e-mail him if he's not checking IRC) and we can begin designing shards, and then I will make a call out to a set of people to help back things up |
08:19
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|
SketchCow |
But we have 12 petabytes to coordinate and we should get on that hardcore |
08:19
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|
Senji |
Ugg. Been away; and a number of my bits of shards have gone offline and expired. I'll get them back online over the rest of the week. |
08:19
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SketchCow |
Please do |
08:19
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|
Senji |
12PB is going to take a lot of volunteers |
08:19
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|
SketchCow |
I also want us to please create documentation for people to read and re-read as needed to keep track. |
08:19
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SketchCow |
Perhaps a readthedocs |
08:44
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10:09
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10:10
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kurt |
Closure idle for 11 days, doesn't look promising |
11:03
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11:33
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11:48
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12:42
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14:13
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14:16
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14:20
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14:31
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14:56
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15:27
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16:08
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SketchCow |
We'll deal. |
16:09
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SketchCow |
Kaz and I'll find JesseW |
16:19
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SketchCow |
--------------------------------------------- |
16:19
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Who in this channel can step forward with help with client-coding or configuring |
16:19
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SketchCow |
--------------------------------------------- |
16:31
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16:40
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computerf |
@SketchCow: I can help out after this weekend. Is there is list of things that need to be done? Not seeing one on the IA.BAK wiki page |
16:42
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|
MrRadar |
SketchCow: I could probably help (well, once I finish recovering from the shock of President Trump) |
16:42
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|
MrRadar |
What needs to be done? |
16:45
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|
SketchCow |
The whole IA.BAK project wasn't mothballed, but it was in "see it running" mode |
16:45
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|
SketchCow |
Now it is not. |
16:46
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|
SketchCow |
What I want is a group of people willing to step in and talk with people who have disk space, to help them get on the project |
16:47
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|
SketchCow |
Brewster and I chatted. He is tacitly fine with this. |
16:52
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|
computerf |
Ok, so recruiting people in. What is there to do software/infrastructure-wise? I'm not the best "people person"... |
16:52
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|
MrRadar |
Ditto |
16:52
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|
SketchCow |
I'm a people person. |
16:53
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|
SketchCow |
:) |
16:53
🔗
|
Kaz |
I'm a human |
16:53
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Kaz. Shardmastering. Need you on it stat. |
16:53
🔗
|
SketchCow |
ping me an e-mail address |
16:53
🔗
|
Kaz |
yes |
16:53
🔗
|
Kaz |
but Closure |
16:54
🔗
|
SketchCow |
I can reach Closure. |
16:54
🔗
|
Kaz |
okay |
16:54
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Ping me an e-mail. |
16:54
🔗
|
SketchCow |
I need to start assembling people with disk space. 50tb folks. |
16:54
🔗
|
Kaz |
just need my pubkey? |
16:54
🔗
|
SketchCow |
No, I am not doing that. I need your e-mail so I can have you on the slack |
16:55
🔗
|
Kaz |
iabak"kurtmclester.com |
16:55
🔗
|
Kaz |
bloody keyboard layout |
16:55
🔗
|
Kaz |
iabak@kurtmclester.com |
16:55
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Invited |
16:58
🔗
|
computerf |
SketchCow: do we aim for fewer people with lots of storage or more people with less though? We would need >600 people each with 50TB to backup the 30PB archive just once, so easily over 1500 people to give most items triple redundancy. |
16:58
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|
computerf |
All with 50TB |
16:58
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Several things. |
16:59
🔗
|
SketchCow |
First, it's not 30pb |
16:59
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|
SketchCow |
It's more like.... 12 public facing, 15 wayback |
16:59
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|
SketchCow |
We're going after public facing initially |
16:59
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Second, I agree, this is relatively difficult to aim for |
17:00
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Luckily, there's material that we can skip over |
17:00
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Hence Shardmasters, and not just start at AAAAAAA.txt (0000000.txt depending on your system) and moving forward |
17:02
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|
SketchCow |
Examples of materials we can skip over: duplicates of television shows, spam |
17:04
🔗
|
computerf |
Ok, fair points. Even with that in mind though, let's assume that there's 8PB of stuff we want to have triple redundancy on. That's still ~500 people with 50TB each. That's more in the realm of plausibility, but my main point is I think it would be more worthwhile to try and get a lot of people with just like a couple 2TB external HDDs or whatever rather than focus on people with huge disk arrays. More likely (IMHO) that we could get the |
17:04
🔗
|
computerf |
amount of storage needed that way. |
17:04
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Yes, but |
17:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
You do realize it's possible to SEEK OUT group A while ALSO SEEKING OUT group B |
17:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Group A preferred, Group B nice |
17:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Group B also comes with a lot more support needs |
17:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Oh no my drive broke, oh no why does it not sync |
17:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Hence I am trying to build an actual support structure this time. |
17:06
🔗
|
antomatic |
But saying '50tb minimum' may be a useful "you must be this tall" measure - people who are more able to offer a tiny amount of space may also be more likely to churn out, disappear, get lost, etc. Whereas someone standing up 50tb is doing so for a reason and is (hopefully) less likely to disappear on a whim. |
17:06
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|
computerf |
... which is something we're going to have to deal with in the long run anyways |
17:06
🔗
|
computerf |
Yes I just don't see a way to even get close to enough storage if we set the min to like 50TB |
17:06
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|
SketchCow |
PLease stand over here |
17:06
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Next to the group of people who told me my projects seemed unrealistically attainable |
17:08
🔗
|
computerf |
Look, I'm not saying that the whole thing is unrealistic at all. Just that setting the bar so high I think will diminish the likelihood of it happening. |
17:08
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|
computerf |
Please prove me wrong though |
17:08
🔗
|
computerf |
I would love to see it |
17:12
🔗
|
SketchCow |
On it |
17:12
🔗
|
computerf |
Anyways, back to the original question: what needs to be done software-wise? |
17:17
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Our client for IA.BAK can use refinement/flexibility for a download page. |
17:17
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|
SketchCow |
So the time from "find this" to "install" is as short as the Warrior. |
17:18
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|
SketchCow |
Docs writer coming in. |
17:20
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cmaldonad has joined #internetarchive.bak |
17:20
🔗
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SketchCow |
Hello, cmaldonad |
17:20
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|
SketchCow |
<--- Jason |
17:20
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|
cmaldonad |
hi SketchCow |
17:20
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|
SketchCow |
Website: http://iabak.archiveteam.org/ |
17:20
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|
cmaldonad |
---> kami here |
17:20
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
reading that |
17:21
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Wikipage: http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=INTERNETARCHIVE.BAK |
17:23
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|
cmaldonad |
I see an additional concern that is not listed |
17:24
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|
SketchCow |
Always up for hearing it |
17:24
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
Periodical Restore Rehearsal events |
17:24
🔗
|
SketchCow |
That's actually in there, but not listed |
17:24
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|
cmaldonad |
otherwise there's no way that your restore plans are useful/adequate |
17:24
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
ok |
17:24
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Sorry, in there in a "built into the system" |
17:24
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|
cmaldonad |
I get the idea of the project |
17:24
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|
cmaldonad |
ok |
17:25
🔗
|
SketchCow |
So, we have a client people install, and I'd like to begin a documentation set related to it, to help ramp. |
17:25
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
ok |
17:26
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Anything written, put in a public place (google docs, or the wiki) to begin to build that framework |
17:26
🔗
|
SketchCow |
The people we' |
17:26
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
it's important to have an idea of the audience |
17:26
🔗
|
SketchCow |
The people we're dealing with initially will be comfortable but we quickly move to a situation where people who are more "just what do I type" come in |
17:26
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Initially, Unix nerds, then ultimately, it's a client in windows and other systems that people are plugging removable hard drives into |
17:27
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|
cmaldonad |
I am a Sys Admin, but I've written docs for entry level staff, so I consider myself useful for either audience (high or low technical skill level) |
17:27
🔗
|
SketchCow |
The beginning of a framework based on what's written should work. I can answer questions as can others. |
17:27
🔗
|
SketchCow |
If you find gaps or want links, we can help |
17:29
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
I am reading this http://tracker.archiveteam.org at the moment |
17:30
🔗
|
SketchCow |
You got it |
17:30
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Tracker is currently a separate project but worth seeing since it came from the same people. |
17:32
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
and now I jumped to this http://git-annex.branchable.com |
17:41
🔗
|
HCross2 |
Can I see an example shard please, so I can get an idea on what to do? |
17:41
🔗
|
HCross2 |
I'm also happy if people have servers/space and want me to configure it all |
17:48
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|
cmaldonad |
"A script can do this using the git annex fromkey and git annex registerurl commands. Time to make such a repository with 100k files is in the 10 minute range (faster on SSD or randisk)." |
17:48
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|
cmaldonad |
example values for this section would help |
17:59
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|
db48x |
HCross2: an example shard is http://iabak.archiveteam.org/SHARD1.html |
17:59
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|
HCross2 |
I meant the actual contents of the shard file |
18:01
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|
db48x |
it's not a file, it's a git repository |
18:01
🔗
|
db48x |
to create the repository we first make a list of collections, then use a script to enumerate their contents, adding each item in the collection to the repository |
18:04
🔗
|
db48x |
https://github.com/ArchiveTeam/IA.BAK/blob/server/mkSHARD |
18:05
🔗
|
yipdw |
at some point I will need to make sure that the ia.bak code will run on FreeBSD (since that's where all my storage is), so I will try to get some time in to look at the code |
18:08
🔗
|
HCross2 |
Thanks db48x |
18:09
🔗
|
db48x |
you're welcome |
18:09
🔗
|
HCross2 |
I'll see about writing up a set of instructions on how to create shards |
18:19
🔗
|
db48x |
we aimed to have about 100,000 files adding up to between 2 and 5 TB in each shard |
18:25
🔗
|
SketchCow |
I need a secondary/majordomo/co-organizer for this project. |
18:25
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Someone who is also on here a lot and can help answer so stuff doesn't linger. |
18:35
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|
yipdw |
I guess I can do that; I've run this code before |
18:37
🔗
|
Meroje |
someone with write access to wiki, can you add CGI as perl dependency ? |
18:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Mostly, I want, as a metric, for valid questions in this channel to be answered in 15 minutes if possible. |
18:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
If it takes this being a big priority, I get it. I just don't want things lingering. |
18:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
For example: Meroje: No. |
18:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
See? I got back to them in 60 seconds. |
18:38
🔗
|
Meroje |
great |
18:40
🔗
|
SketchCow |
cmaldonad: Please mail me at jason@textfiles.com if you run into issues with the framework |
18:40
🔗
|
SketchCow |
My schedule: Broadway show tonight, travel to DC tomorrow, working in warehouses for 3 days, back up |
18:44
🔗
|
db48x |
Meroje: why don't you have write access to the wiki? |
18:45
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
SketchCow, will do |
18:46
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
testing |
18:46
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
ok, timestamps enabled here |
18:47
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Yes. |
18:52
🔗
|
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dfboyd has joined #internetarchive.bak |
18:58
🔗
|
SketchCow |
A contributor with TB is coming on here soon, we can work with him and see how the onboarding is |
19:00
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
TB ? |
19:02
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Terabytes |
19:02
🔗
|
SketchCow |
And Tubercluosis |
19:02
🔗
|
SketchCow |
A user with both disk space a debilitating lung disease |
19:03
🔗
|
sep332 |
Johnny Pneumonic |
19:04
🔗
|
dfboyd |
In case it comes up: I ran the numbers on Amazon Glacier. It would take 430 Snowball servers to move 21P; stored in Amazon Glacier it would cost $154,140.67 a month in us-east-1 or their other less-expensive clusters. |
19:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Those numbers were run some time ago |
19:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
But agreed, we found it not workable |
19:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
Even with Glacier |
19:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
dfboyd and cmaldonad - Docs |
19:05
🔗
|
SketchCow |
cmaldonad: dfboyd has stepped forward to run second if you need verbiage or research |
19:06
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
thanks |
19:06
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
but do we have a list of pending documents to write, or should I make a decision as we determine what is needed as we get new people contributing space and generating questions? |
19:07
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|
db48x |
cmaldonad: we're not so organized that we have a list of documents that are yet to be written |
19:08
🔗
|
db48x |
I guess you could add it to the list of documents to write |
19:08
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|
Frogging |
I can give a few TB |
19:09
🔗
|
SketchCow |
I think the priority is "Someone wanders in from the street with a pile of drive space and an existensial fear for the archive's data" |
19:17
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
We could start with a "Jumpstart to your own shard" |
19:17
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
and there's also that comes to mind |
19:18
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
like a Matrix that would allow people to know how they can best contribute with whatever space available they have |
19:18
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
but I need to read more about tech details on that |
19:18
🔗
|
cmaldonad |
the Jumpstart is a good way to start |
19:22
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|
db48x |
sounds good |
19:22
🔗
|
db48x |
ask me questions and I'll answer them |
19:25
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Kksmkrn has joined #internetarchive.bak |
19:29
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kyan has joined #internetarchive.bak |
19:33
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cmaldonad |
ok db48x, thanks |
19:33
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cmaldonad |
I am afk to make lunch |
19:37
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|
dfboyd |
If you assume the average space volunteer has 1TB, then you need 21,000 of them just to have 1x coverage. You probably want 3x coverage: 60,000 people. Suppose the average contributor is able to drop $500 and get 10 x 1TB hard drives, then great, you only ned 6000 people? |
19:38
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|
db48x |
yea, it's a problem |
19:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
This "I ran the numbers guyz" thing is adorable |
19:38
🔗
|
SketchCow |
I'll work on having a cohesive response |
19:39
🔗
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dfboyd |
Which means not just a few dedicated volunteers, it means a mass volunteer thing; you need not just hackers and hobbyist engineers, you need retirees and moms and church groups or whatever? |
19:39
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db48x |
what I really "want" to do is write a nice windows desktop application, to make adoption easier |
19:39
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db48x |
but "want" and "windows desktop app" don't really go together |
19:39
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dfboyd |
As long as you're thinking about it already, I won't keep going on about it. You have fingers, you can do arithmetic. |
19:39
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cmaldonad |
this should be as easy as "Seti@Home" was |
19:40
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SketchCow |
A very cohesive response |
19:40
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db48x |
cmaldonad: agreed |
19:40
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cmaldonad |
I know it's not the current status, but that's one of the biggest distributed projects that had success |
19:41
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yipdw |
it would be nice too if it were somehow made clear that this isn't a theoretical thing; there's backups out there right now and the point now is to get more |
19:42
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cmaldonad |
uhm |
19:43
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cmaldonad |
dfboyd, is your programming background in Windows or plain C (Unix/Linux variants)? |
19:43
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dfboyd |
My only other idea that I want to ask about is: suppose the end-user just needs to do the following: 1. download a program of some kind and run it on their PC; they just have to tell it how much storage it's allowed to use. 2. What the program does is, behaves like an HDFS DataNode or a GFS chunkserver: it just checks in to the master and says, "I have XX GB available". 3. The master saves a collection of data blocks to that client; every so oft |
19:43
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yipdw |
that's what the current client does |
19:43
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dfboyd |
I am plain C (Unix/Linux), Python; not Windows-knowledgeable. |
19:43
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yipdw |
git-annex is a bit rough on Windows |
19:44
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yipdw |
there's path-length-limit issues |
19:44
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yipdw |
but it can work |
19:44
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dfboyd |
However these days one writes cross-platform apps using Electron, which is basically a menu-bar-less browser that runs Javascript apps. That's how the Slack chat client is made. And I do know CLojurescript. |
19:44
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cmaldonad |
dfboyd, then it would be a lot more feasible to have a Raspbian based image that brings up a shard node by booting a Raspberry Pi and a wizard asking what drive to use |
19:46
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dfboyd |
Does that mean people have to buy a Raspberry Pi and a hard drive? |
19:46
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cmaldonad |
it would |
19:46
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cmaldonad |
but it would be a zero-config deplouyment |
19:47
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cmaldonad |
deployment* |
19:47
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dfboyd |
(i.e. one can't just participate by running some background program on one's ordinary desktop PC). |
19:47
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cmaldonad |
I don't know if you are looking to: - zero config or wide adoption through reutilization |
19:47
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cmaldonad |
it would be just one option to deploy |
19:48
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cmaldonad |
I just see Windows desktop set ups as very fragile |
19:48
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cmaldonad |
say, they would use space probably shared by the Windows installation, most people don't partition OS a in a diff partition than data |
19:49
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SketchCow |
cmaldonad: It helps to understand the nature of git-annex and why I specifically chose that for this |
19:50
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yipdw |
fragility can be dealt with; the current system already accounts for that |
19:50
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SketchCow |
Example: Drives are able to be offlined |
19:50
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SketchCow |
And verified at times |
19:50
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cmaldonad |
ok |
19:50
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SketchCow |
(This is why there's an "aging" system already built in: notice how we classify people by last checkins) |
19:50
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SketchCow |
Idea being someone puts a drive into a bay once a month and it goes whiirrrr and spits them out saying 'thanks' |
19:50
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SketchCow |
And if it fails, it piles back into the red |
19:51
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cmaldonad |
ok |
19:51
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cmaldonad |
got it |
19:51
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db48x |
also, with git-annex the users aren't downloading random anonymous chunks, they're downloading a random selection of ordinary files that they can just use normally |
19:51
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db48x |
images, music, magazines, whatever |
19:52
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db48x |
in principle they can pick and choose which files they want at any time, if they can use the command line |
19:52
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cmaldonad |
that's a high motivation factor that should be highlighted |
19:52
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db48x |
the hypothetical gui app would make that nicer for most people |
19:56
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db48x |
and then there are the 50GB warc files that require specialized tools to use, so the HGA won't help much |
19:56
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db48x |
but we're not backing those up yet, so we can just not mention that in the press releases |
20:01
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db48x |
I too require lunch |
20:01
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db48x |
back soon (herbacious) |
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bwn |
HCross2: if it will help you on your quest, i still have collection total sizes and an item list with totalsize/files/collections from jan too (as well the itemlists i mentioned earlier) |
20:47
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bwn |
i can slice and dice/sort if needed, if not, i will shut up :) |
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SketchPho |
Hey. |
21:01
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SketchPho |
I've added my phone client to this channel so that I can be more easily reached if needed |
21:01
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SketchPho |
I'm going to keep out of the other channels |
21:17
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SketchPho |
Yard Masters, please make archive bot collection followed by General archive team collection the next shards |
21:18
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Kaz |
understood |
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