[00:09] *** schbirid has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [00:37] *** kyan has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) [00:38] *** kyan has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:18] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:46] *** aaaaaaaaa sets mode: +o chfoo [02:00] *** BlueMaxim has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:17] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [02:25] *** zgrep has left This channel is full of -bs. [02:29] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:44] *** primus104 has quit IRC (Leaving.) [03:09] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [03:42] *** phuzion has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [03:49] *** phuzion has joined #archiveteam-bs [04:20] *** aaaaaaaaa has quit IRC (Leaving) [04:40] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [04:56] *** Cameron_D has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 483 seconds) [05:05] *** Ravenloft has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [05:10] *** Cameron_D has joined #archiveteam-bs [06:29] *** jspiros has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) [06:44] *** PurpleSym has joined #archiveteam-bs [06:57] *** jspiros has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:40] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [07:52] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:34] *** Stiletto has quit IRC () [08:35] *** Stiletto has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:40] *** schbirid has joined #archiveteam-bs [09:18] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [09:25] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [09:33] *** primus104 has joined #archiveteam-bs [11:01] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [11:24] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [11:26] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [11:26] *** primus104 has left [11:33] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [11:57] *** nmnn has joined #archiveteam-bs [12:04] *** RichardG has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [12:11] *** RichardG has joined #archiveteam-bs [12:54] *** robink has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 492 seconds) [13:46] SketchCow: medium.com 2015-04 urls are almost all donel [13:46] i grab those though a proxy mostly [14:00] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [14:04] *** BlueMaxim has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [14:11] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [14:46] *** primus104 has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:06] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [15:37] *** nmnn has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [15:39] *** zenguy_pc has quit IRC (Excess Flood) [15:44] *** Zandro has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:45] https://www.reddit.com/r/FAT32peoplehate [15:45] *** SmileyG has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [15:45] *** Smiley has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:46] *** zenguy_pc has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:48] http://www.sounddevices.com/news/sound-devices-news/sound-devices-technical-alert [15:48] *** Laverne has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 369 seconds) [15:49] *** dxrt has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 369 seconds) [15:49] *** dxrt has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:49] *** Laverne has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:52] *** zenguy_pc has quit IRC (Excess Flood) [15:52] *** zenguy_pc has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:47] dang [16:50] That's really nasty, and means something is really screwed up because it shouldn't even be remotely possible. [16:53] w10 seems to be getting good at Things That Shouldn't Happen [16:57] Case in point: http://www.sounddevices.com/news/sound-devices-news/sound-devices-technical-alert [16:57] "We have confirmed user reports of a serious issue with Windows 10 and removable media formatted as FAT32. Users are experiencing corruption of .wav media files by simply inserting FAT32 formatted SD or CF cards into a Windows 10 computer. Files do not need to be opened or accessed in order for them to become corrupt." [16:58] yes that was posted just an hour ago [16:58] it's what we're talking about [16:58] Oh. [16:59] Didn't realize it was that popular. [16:59] Unfortunately, fat32 is still how you need to format stuff if you need to work on virtually everything. [17:01] yep [17:03] It'd be nice if we could have a /decent/ filesystem that works on the big 3 (Windows, Mac, Linux), but I guess Silicon Valley can't even accomplish that much. [17:10] *** robink has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:12] anomie: udf probably would work, but as it's almost always used on DVDs, it'd be hard to say how it would work on a non-DVD medium [17:22] whatever you choose will never work on the windows xp machine at the kinko's where you need to print a thing quickly [17:32] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:34] Then move it to a fat32 drive for that? [17:43] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [17:47] *** arkiver2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:50] *** arkiver2 has quit IRC (Client Quit) [17:52] *** aaaaaaaaa has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:52] *** swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaaa [17:57] I wonder if exFAT has the same flaw, but I don't even know what would cause something that bad [18:09] exFAT? [18:09] Like, there most be more people that use ext4 than exfat. [18:10] *** primus104 has quit IRC (Leaving.) [18:11] Is it possible to send a TB hard drive to the internet archive (for faster bandwidth) and then have it returned to me? [18:11] Or do they need to keep it? [18:11] *** aaaaaaaaa has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [18:12] *** aaaaaaaaa has joined #archiveteam-bs [18:12] *** swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaaa [18:19] So, is a kilobyte 1000 bytes, or 1024 bytes? [18:20] depends on who you ask [18:20] and the problem domain too, I suppose [18:21] >depends on who you ask [18:21] Really? [18:22] What are standards organizations for then? [18:22] making money [18:22] at least for the people involved [18:23] Fair point. [18:23] But I really think this ambiguity is one of the tech industries biggest fuckups. [18:24] At least, unlike metric/imperial, it's not likely to cost so much money. [18:24] *** SimpBrain has joined #archiveteam-bs [18:25] well, I think it is two problems, 1 is the fact that the k/G/T etc. was already used for base 10 exponents and 2 hard disk manufacturers found an easy way to save 2.4% or more off the top [18:26] The second is? [18:27] hard disk manufacturers switching to 1000 instead of 1024 [18:29] But aren't they just following the IEC's standards? How is that a problem? [18:32] because for a long time kilobyte meant 2e10 in base 2 and it introduced ambiguity. [18:33] Then why call it a kilobyte? [18:34] like with memory vs hard disks capacities, or why Windows says the capacity of my disk is less then the sticker, etc. [18:34] why call it a byte? We give things names and they mean whatever the namer wants [18:34] at least until usage takes over, I suppose. [18:35] But then why use terms from SI? [18:36] Though honestly, I don't care too much whether KB means 1024, or 1000. [18:36] It's the ambiguity cause by using "kilo" that bothers me. [18:36] *caused [18:37] Though, I remember there was also a time where MB could mean 1,024,000 bytes. [18:39] I think it was always 2e20, and people just couldn't be bothered to do the math [18:39] My point is, whenever I see GB, or Mbps, or kb, etc., I'd like to know exactly how many bytes are being talked about. Further context shouldn't be required. [18:41] Probably not, but it takes force to overcome momentum and I doubt most people care because magnitude usually matters more than exactness. [18:41] Yeah. [18:42] In any case, I'm glad that for now I can assume that most HDD vendors use the SI one, and most everyone else doesn't. [18:42] I'll still always be pedantic enough to use decimal kilobytes though. [18:43] or start calling them kibibytes, or whatever the name is [18:43] I'm really sure I like that term. [18:44] I mean, most people will just hear "kilobytes" anyways. [18:44] What do ram manufacturers use? [18:44] base 2 [18:45] All right. [18:46] usually almost anything measured in "bytes" is base 2, except hard disks, anything else is usually base 10 [18:46] In any case, I'll always dream of a day when an average Windows user plugs in a 1TB HDD, that windows will tell him it's 1TB, rather than 931.3226GB. [18:46] and OS X and anything in linux that uses glib use base 10 because they're dumb [18:46] s/dump/correct [18:46] *dumb [18:46] I had to recompile my file manager in linux with some tweaks to make it correct in base 2 [18:47] … [18:47] wyatt8740: Can we stop before the flamewar happens? [18:47] oh yeah. I've had things change sizes on me before when partitioning vs formatting [18:47] I didnt realize anyone actually used the 'drivemaker's kilobyte' [18:48] https://xkcd.com/394/ [18:48] wyatt8740: The IEC does, the IEEE does. [18:48] It's an SI unit. [18:48] IEC created a standard for base 2 [18:48] wyatt8740: Wut? http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html [18:48] right, but I believe the disk makers switched first and the IEC had to clean up the mess or something like that [18:49] aaaaaaaaa: Can you show me? That sounds really interesting. [18:49] no, drivemakers abuse the SI standard because it's more bytes of storage on the label and less that computers actually see [18:49] Regardless, they were simply using SI prefixes correctly. [18:49] even OS X uses base 2 for all the CLI programs because that's the way it's always been done [18:50] wyatt8740: It's retarded though. [18:50] not denying that SI did make the standard, just saying SI was wrong to do so IMO :p [18:51] Being the way it was done first doesn't make it right. [18:51] "Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body. " [18:52] either way, all the old dogs and greybeards will die off eventually and the great SI/IEC utopia will not be stopped. [18:52] I hope so. [18:52] 1000/8 = 125. 125/8 = 15.625. 15.625 / 8 = 1.953125. Where in base 2, 1024/8=128. 128/8 = 16. 16/8 = 2. [18:52] IMO whole numbers make more sense :p [18:52] aaaaaaaaa: I think you might be underestimating the influence of the things people already use. [18:53] *** primus104 has joined #archiveteam-bs [18:53] As long as windows doesn't change, I don't think very much else will. [18:53] people already use windows (most of them, not me personally) [18:54] it'd be better if windows would just shove a lowercase 'i' between K and B. [18:54] :p [18:54] Still, I think windows could at least start using KiB, MiB, GiB, etc. [18:54] wyatt8740: Yes, I agree. [18:54] I don't care which one is used more, as much as I wish they could be distinct. [18:55] if computers did calculations in base 10 I wouldn't mind either :p [18:55] but they don't [18:56] Don't do calculations in base 10 then. [18:58] KiB will always remain useful at a lower level, beyond the reach of common abstractions. [18:58] who doesn't know that .1 + .1 + .1 != .3 [18:58] Just a step above where engineers once spoke of "bauds". [18:58] totally obvious [18:59] baud actually measures something different [18:59] aaaaaaaaa: Actually… lemme try something. [18:59] CL-USER> (+ 0.1 0.1 0.1) | A)) [18:59] 0.3 [19:00] aaaaaaaaa: Apparenlty Common Lisp doesn't. ;) [19:00] aaaaaaaaa: Do you have any more floating point fuckery I could try? [19:02] they probably round or the actually equality measure might be false or various behind the scenes things might be happening. [19:03] aaaaaaaaa: Should I try using smaller amounts? [19:03] I don't remember any off hand, but a lot of operations give odd results, especially if you store an intermediate variable. [19:04] Here's one. [19:04] CL-USER> (+ 0.0001 0.0001 0.0001) [19:04] 2.9999999e-4 [19:10] http://www.lahey.com/float.htm [19:11] Those examples are in fortran, but you'd probably get the gist. [19:12] I just realized some people still use fortran. [19:12] Which isn't a bad thing, I guess. Fortran is *still* amazingly well optimized. [19:41] anomie: I have a RS232 terminal, I am perfectly aware what bauds are :p [19:41] also, I do calculations in base 10. But I dont want my computer lying to me about how big files are [19:43] (though the flyback transformer in my terminal died last week so it's currently out of commission) [20:09] *** schbirid has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [20:49] *** PurpleSym has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [20:55] wyatt8740: I… I'm not old enough. Can you explain please? [20:57] *** c_b has joined #archiveteam-bs [21:11] anomie: baud? [21:12] I'm 18 btw [21:12] so I'm not really old enough either. [21:12] in RS232 baud is the number of bytes that can be sent per second [21:12] *characters [21:12] so that usually equates to bytes but not always (some terminals used 7 bits per character I think) [21:13] whoops [21:13] im wrong [21:13] it's bits per second [21:14] so 19200 baud means you can send up to 19200 bits per second (or 2400 bytes, or 2.34 KiB/2.4KB) [21:15] 19200 baud is the maximum speed of my terminal [21:15] and it goes all the way down to 150 baud [21:15] at lower speeds like that or even 1200 baud you can literally see lines being drawn when you use a ncurses program [21:28] Yeah. [21:29] 1200 baud is when you drop vim/emacs and start using ED. [21:29] But what is the flyback transformer? [21:29] What is RS232? [21:34] Try wikipedia. But in all seriousness, flyback transformers are common in CRTs and RS-232 is a standard for serial communication. [21:35] RS232 is not merely common but damned near ubiquitous even today. [21:35] Admittedly you're not likely to be exposed to it as an end user unless you're doing device development of some form. [21:35] RS-232 was used for almost everything I can think of, except printers, before USB took over on PCs [21:36] (the major use case for it these days is to get a console on various devices. Say, tinkering with the firmware on your TV.) [21:37] Is it the original serialbus? [21:37] yeah, or industry stuff [21:37] anomie: Yep. [21:37] Ah. [21:37] Though it's not a bus. [21:37] Doesn't it have 9 pins, if I remember right? [21:37] Five on top, four on the bottom? [21:37] although technically that's just async serial, commonly called UART - RS232 specifies signalling levels that are pretty antiquated (nominally +/- 12V) and you won't find real RS232 on things like embedded debug ports [21:38] RS-232 specifies a 25 pin connector, but most stuff uses a 9 pin connector or something. [21:38] Right, yeah, you'd need extra circuitry to get real RS-232 out of debug ports. [21:38] the 9-pin variant was an IBM attempt to save money. RS232 itself defined a 25-pin pinout, including a secondary circuit and additional handshaking [21:39] Wow… [21:40] (there's also a difference between 'baud' and 'bits per second', which is something like symbols vs. bits - the baud rate is the number of times the signal can change state per second, but each state might convey multiple bits - although quite where that lies on the common-usage vs. official-usage vs. pedantic-crap spectrum I'm not sure) [21:41] RS-232 is fairly nice for stuff because it's relatively simple to support (and something that pretty much anyone can get access to) [22:00] *** zenguy_pc has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [22:01] *** zenguy_pc has joined #archiveteam-bs [22:16] *** Coderjoe_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [22:26] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 624 seconds) [22:31] *** Ravenloft has joined #archiveteam-bs [22:41] Wow, lot of questions. [22:43] *** Start has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 306 seconds) [22:46] *** Start has joined #archiveteam-bs [23:04] *** c_b2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [23:04] *** c_b2 has quit IRC (Client Quit) [23:05] *** c_b has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [23:05] *** wyatt8740 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [23:15] PotcFdk: pong [23:15] ding dong [23:15] PotcFdk: so yeah, have a go with that :P [23:15] I will, thanks for your help! [23:16] joepie91: would you mind if I pinged you back in case I run into anything bad [23:18] PotcFdk: go ahead, but no guarantee on response time :P [23:19] (I generally respond faster in #Node.js anyway) [23:37] *** aaaaaaaa_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [23:37] *** aaaaaaaaa has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [23:37] *** swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaa_ [23:37] *** aaaaaaaa_ is now known as aaaaaaaaa [23:58] whut