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yipdw |
DFJustin: ooh, neat |
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02:23
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SketchCow |
WAIT |
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02:23
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SketchCow |
OK, whew, DFJustin just highlighted synergy |
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SketchCow |
that's how I do it |
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xmc |
yipdw: can you echo it | nc -u 255.255.255.255 |
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04:24
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xmc |
or even yes it |
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05:08
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rentrin |
Your html brings tears to my eyes SketchCow :/ no char encoding, parse mode, doctype |
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05:08
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rentrin |
http://textfiles.com/jason/ |
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05:08
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rentrin |
What are closing <p> tags :/ |
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xmc |
thanks for that interlude |
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05:11
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phuzion |
rentrin: In case you weren't aware, Google' |
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05:11
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phuzion |
Google's homepage is pretty bad with HTML, if I'm not mistkane. |
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05:11
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phuzion |
mistaken* |
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05:13
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phuzion |
ps, it's 2015, as long as it works, if someone doesn't define the doctype, who cares? |
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05:18
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aposson |
I guess pointing out the html illiteracy of our overlord SketchCrow is against policy. Sorry for interrupting, may the circle jerk continue~ |
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aposson |
peace. |
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BlueMaxim |
caw caw |
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05:39
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Jordan_ |
phuzion: Google's compression != bad |
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05:40
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xmc |
what is this discussion about? |
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05:41
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xmc |
are you really whining about some guy's home page's markup? |
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05:44
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yipdw |
https://xkcd.com/386/ I guess |
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05:45
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JesseW |
I think what confused me the most was the random changing their name between bouts of ... whatever that was. |
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05:46
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JesseW |
Jordan_: er, what? who brought up Google's compression? |
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05:46
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JesseW |
and compression of what? Their HTML? |
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05:46
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Jordan_ |
>22:11 <phuzion> Google's homepage is pretty bad with HTML, if I'm not mistkane. |
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05:47
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JesseW |
right, that was about the (presumably standards compliance) of Google's homepage. What does that have to do with how compressed (or not) it is? |
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05:48
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Jordan_ |
Because Google doesn't have any issue with standard compliance?... lol. |
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05:48
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JesseW |
what? Who did you think claimed that? |
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05:49
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phuzion |
JesseW: Basically, I was pointing out that pages may not be standards compliant, but they still work nowadays because browsers are pretty friggin crafty and it's often not necessary to have a page that's 100% standards compliant |
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05:50
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phuzion |
because rentrin was ragging on jason's homepage for really stupid shit (omg the html isn't compliant!!!) |
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05:50
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JesseW |
yeah, that was what I thought you meant. I'm just confused how Jordan_ went from there to talking about compression, or people claiming that "Google doesn't have any issue with standard compliance". |
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05:51
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yipdw |
Blender Bottles are awesome |
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05:52
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xmc |
tbh i've never really seen the point |
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05:52
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xmc |
ice cubes do just as well and they're more ecologically friendly |
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05:52
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xmc |
they do make more noise though, disturbing the people across the table |
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05:52
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yipdw |
I haven't tried ice cubes before |
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05:52
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yipdw |
maybe I should |
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05:52
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xmc |
oh yeah it's a whole new ballgame |
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05:53
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Jordan_ |
When people look at Google's source and think "holy fuck, mah readability", it's due to compression |
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05:53
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xmc |
also you don't have that problem with the blender ball thingy getting stuck in your teeth |
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05:53
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Jordan_ |
As it follows correct standards, that's all I could assuming phuzion was talking about |
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05:53
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yipdw |
I've never had that problem; the top usually keeps it in |
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05:53
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xmc |
hm |
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05:53
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phuzion |
Jordan_: google's homepage actually errors a lot on w3c validator. |
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05:53
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xmc |
well i eat from a wide mouth nalgene |
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05:53
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JesseW |
Jordan_: ah, ok, I think I understand what you meant now. |
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05:53
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yipdw |
eat from? |
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05:53
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xmc |
all my meals |
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05:54
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Jordan_ |
Nothing game-breaking though, phuzion |
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05:55
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phuzion |
Right, but neither are the "problems" on jason's homepage. I was pointing out that, look, yes, there are imperfections in the HTML on jason's page, but guess what, even Google has similar html errors. Not a big deal, since browsers work around it. |
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05:56
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xmc |
anyway, yipdw, crushed ice or tiny ice cubes work really well |
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05:56
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xmc |
big cubes don't mix it enough |
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05:56
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yipdw |
I'll give it a shot |
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05:56
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xmc |
but if you put too much ice in then the shake becomes a sludge because of the cold |
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05:57
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yipdw |
that's fine, the bottle usually warms up pretty fast |
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05:57
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yipdw |
IME |
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05:57
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xmc |
i usually have 400mL powder, 150mL ice, 600mL water |
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05:57
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xmc |
yeah |
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05:57
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xmc |
the ice just makes it cool, especially if you use unchilled tapwater |
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05:57
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Jordan_ |
Sure, but there's a big difference between the two. There's value in html validation, but yeah I know where you're coming from phuzion. |
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05:57
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xmc |
what? |
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05:57
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xmc |
we're talking about food |
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05:57
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xmc |
"food" |
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05:58
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xmc |
more like hacking fuel i guess |
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05:58
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yipdw |
hey smoothies are food in some sense |
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05:58
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xmc |
yeah, they're food more than water is food at least |
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05:59
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xmc |
so what do you put in your blender bottle? |
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06:00
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yipdw |
it's usually that Vega protein powder stuff |
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06:00
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yipdw |
I'm basically the Whole Foods customer archetype, with all that negatively implies |
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06:01
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xmc |
hahaha |
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06:01
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xmc |
fair enough |
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06:54
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SketchCow |
NERDS gonna nerd |
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06:54
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SketchCow |
I come back here from, you know, getting shit done |
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06:54
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SketchCow |
and someone I've never heard of is telling me about DOCTYPE |
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06:54
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SketchCow |
which my system predates |
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06:54
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SketchCow |
as it probably predates him |
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06:55
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SketchCow |
So also: Guy on twitter telling me if I don't use ZFS for my storage of these floppies, it's "no better than the original medium" |
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06:55
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SketchCow |
If I'm going to jail for murder, it obviously has to be serial murder |
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06:55
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SketchCow |
I mean, really go the val-u-pak |
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06:55
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SketchCow |
Making a list, checking it twice, etc |
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06:57
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SketchCow |
Oh, I see he left. |
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06:57
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SketchCow |
Another nerd tourist |
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06:57
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SketchCow |
Another aspie looky-loo |
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07:03
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JesseW |
well, he came back ... under a different name ... a few minutes later. For whatever bizarre reason. |
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07:03
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JesseW |
and didn't seem to notice he'd changed names... |
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07:04
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JesseW |
speaking of getting things done -- I've been using my newfound powers for good over in #urlteam (hopefully) |
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07:05
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SketchCow |
We can hope |
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07:05
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SketchCow |
I like action. |
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07:05
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SketchCow |
I don't like pointing and "you missed a spot" |
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07:05
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ersi |
ACTION! |
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07:05
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JesseW |
CAMERAS! |
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07:05
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JesseW |
AIM! |
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07:05
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JesseW |
(or is it supposed to go in a different order...) |
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07:06
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JesseW |
(well, ask the documentarian... :-) ) |
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07:06
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SketchCow |
I work very hard and nerds explaining to me the "right" way to do things is not appreciated. |
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07:06
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SketchCow |
And then, I idly take the laser-like focus I apply to things and I want to make someone cry |
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07:10
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07:12
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ersi |
right way = doing it at all IMO |
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07:13
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vitzli |
thank you, SketchCow |
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07:14
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vitzli |
for the linux_distributions collection |
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07:15
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JesseW |
http://archive.org/details/linux_distributions |
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07:16
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SketchCow |
Easily done |
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07:16
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SketchCow |
When you give me a collection of item names, I can do a thing against them |
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07:19
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JesseW |
I noticed (like I do) that one was marked by the uploader as "delete". I'll send that to info@, unless you want to do it... |
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07:19
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07:19
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JesseW |
https://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_LighthousePup-412_pets_sfs_173 |
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07:20
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07:21
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JesseW |
SketchCow: is giving you a search query (maybe including a list of items *not* to include) equally good, or is it better to have them expanded? |
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09:07
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PurpleSym |
Thumbnails in the wiki seem to be broken for large images: http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=File:Code.google.com_shutdown_screencapture.png |
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20:24
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JW_work |
SketchCow: I see my email about sorting items in magazine_rack was in a useful form. BTW, please attribute https://archive.org/details/the_agitator&tab=about to https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/agitator/index.htm . :-) |
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20:25
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JW_work |
And https://archive.org/details/labor_age&tab=about to https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/laborage/index.htm . I'll try to provide descriptions along with my lists of items in future emails. |
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20:32
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SketchCow |
I credited both to marxists.org. Sufficient. |
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20:33
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JW_work |
as you like. I thought it useful to link directly, so people can find where it was previously published (and where they can find more). |
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20:34
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SketchCow |
Six people care about this |
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JW_work |
six? more than I thought it was. :-) |
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SketchCow |
About six |
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JW_work |
heh. |
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JW_work |
in any case, thanks for making the collections |
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xmc |
pgoetz: we try to keep #archiveteam quiet so that important information doesn't get buried |
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21:21
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phuzion |
pgoetz: Was I reading correctly that you have approximately 12TB of data to offline-archive? |
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21:23
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pgoetz |
phuzion: yes, this is correct; with data piling up as we speak. I'm working with a national archive to try and come up with some strategy. We've been backing up to 1TB SSD's, but I read an article that these can be highly unstable when unplugged under certain conditions. |
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21:23
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pgoetz |
xmc: I totallly understand |
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21:23
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phuzion |
Yeah, SSDs start losing bits pretty quickly IIRC. |
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21:23
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phuzion |
Have you guys evaluated LTO tape as an option? |
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21:23
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midas |
#archiveteam-bs pls |
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21:24
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midas |
oops |
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21:24
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phuzion |
Probably much cheaper than the optical solution you were linking in the other channel, and readers will be much more available for the forseeable future. |
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21:24
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midas |
already there |
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21:24
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midas |
i'd go for bluray, LG has 125GB disks |
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21:25
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pgoetz |
phuzion: we used tape before, and might consider it. I'm just a bit leary, because the tape drive technology keeps changing, and the hardward isn't as robust as one would like. |
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21:25
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pgoetz |
hardward --> hardware |
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phuzion |
How robust do you need of hardware? You're probably talking about maintaining a library of 50 tapes or less, even your entry level LTO drive should handle 50 tapes a month. |
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21:26
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pgoetz |
phuzion: regarding SSD, it's not clear. As soon as the swath of articles came out claiming that you can experience data loss in as little as 30 minutes, this was immediately debunked as coming from an industry-internal tech document that was never meant for public consumption and was highly misleading. |
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RedType_ |
bluray lth vs htl: some people in here are familiar with the difference, but if you're not, you should look it up |
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21:27
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RedType_ |
basically, lth is the dye based tech that existing cdr/dvdrs use, with the same oxidation/degredation issues |
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21:27
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pgoetz |
phuzion: I'm more worried about long term offline storage. The benchmark I'm using is 10 years. |
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xmc |
pgoetz: 10 years in what kind of environment, what kind of institutional support do you have |
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phuzion |
and what kind of budget |
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21:28
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pgoetz |
When I brought up the issue of using tape again, the users were fairly opposed to this option due to various issues we had previously (mostly driver stuff) |
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21:29
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phuzion |
pgoetz: you said you're working for a national archive of some sorts? |
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xmc |
pgoetz works for a cut-rate spy agency, they want to be the nsa but don't have the budget |
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pgoetz |
$20K? Yes. The Archives of the Episcopal Church |
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xmc |
oh |
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pgoetz |
They typically aren't swimming in cash, but are accumulating quite a bit of data. |
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21:31
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pgoetz |
No thoughts on this product? https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-nab2015/mkt-nab2015mediaworkflow/product-ODSD77U/ |
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pgoetz |
I was pretty thrilled when I found it. You can backup about 1.5TB on each cartridge, and the cartridges are dirt cheap. |
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xmc |
it sounds really expensive |
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21:31
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phuzion |
My thoughts on that product are that Sony has no obligation to make replacements for that device in 10 years, whereas LTO has a big enough marketshare that there absolutely should be LTO drives available that can read an LTO6 tape in 10-20 years. |
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pgoetz |
phuzion: this is a good point. |
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xmc |
you should budget to check and recopy all your data every few years (3 or 5 max) |
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21:33
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pgoetz |
The Sony drive was until recently available on amazon for about $5K. I think the strategy would be to buy an extra drive. Also, Sony has desigend these for archival storage and guarantees the medium for something like 40 years. |
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xmc |
do you trust sony for continuity? they have new connectors on every product they release |
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pgoetz |
RedType_: I think this addresses the question of whether or not this would be using archival quality optical disks. |
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phuzion |
Also, the media is only manufactured by one company. If Sony decides it's not profitable, that product could hit the cutting room floor tomorrow. |
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pgoetz |
xmc: No, I don't trust any hardware manufacturer, frankly. We would buy an extra drive to hold in reserve. USB 3.0 will probably be supported fora long time. |
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xmc |
maybe :) |
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pgoetz |
phuzion: another good point, although I think there are other people (Phillips?) getting into the cartridge manufacturing business. |
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pgoetz |
It's a typical self-fulfilling prophecy: if enough people buy the drives, it will probably be supported for a long time. Seems like there hasn't been much interest, though. |
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phuzion |
"if enough people buy the drives, it will probably be supported for a long time." Are you willing to gamble on that though? |
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xmc |
they already said no |
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pgoetz |
pgoetz: Well, it's definitely better than the current strategy of doing offsite backups to external SSD's. |
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pgoetz |
I haven't bought a tape library in a while, and have mostly been implementing the google strategy of just having each piece of data available on several machines |
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pgoetz |
However all the servers are currently at one location; hence the need for offsite. |
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21:39
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pgoetz |
Using something like Glacier would be an option, but relying on Glacier would likely violate their charter. |
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pgoetz |
xmc: The current data refresh is every 6 months. |
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phuzion |
pgoetz: cost to store 12TB on glacier for 10 years is about $10K |
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xmc |
point of order, $10,000 over ten years gets you $100 a month |
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pgoetz |
I still don't understand how they can make money doing this; this seems unbelievably cheap. |
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pgoetz |
Any recommendations for a very reliable LTO library system? |
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RedType_ |
pgoetz: it screams selling an internal solution to me |
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RedType_ |
they needed glacier, they built it with extra capacity, and now they're selling it. The already had all of the billing/data transfer infrastructure in place. |
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phuzion |
RedType_: Literally how AWS started in the first place. |
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phuzion |
"We need a technology. Let's build it. Oh, we built it and it works really well. Let's build more of it and sell it to people." |
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pgoetz |
RedType_: this sounds about right. I have a friend who works at Google and he claims that the win for providing cloud storage is they end up buying more hardware and can consequently leverage the margins a bit better. |
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pgoetz |
I.e. they don't actually make money on the people buying the service, just end up saving on hardware costs for their own use. |
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RedType_ |
the math of business models at that scale is always mind boggling |
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achip |
one of the better explanations of glacier I've seen (I think facebook did something similar) is a bunch of storage arrays that are brought offline when they are full and brought back up once every few months just to verify the bits and check drives, that may be an option worth looking at |
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phuzion |
achip: Yeah, I saw a video on how facebook does its archival storage, pretty cool. |
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pgoetz |
achip: Or they just dump everything to massive tape libraries, and pull it into fast storage when the customer is trying to access it. |
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RedType_ |
i believe glacier is robot based as well |
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RedType_ |
so aside from someone picking up the storage pod from the fedex truck, plugging it in, and cleaning it with a damp cloth when it's done, it's all robots |
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21:49
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pgoetz |
BTW, I think the typical Archives strategy for stuff like old tapes (does anyone remember 12" optical disks) etc. is to always purchase at least 2 hardware readers and keep one in a box unused after testing. |
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21:50
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SketchCow |
What's the discussion |
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21:50
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SketchCow |
sdlfkjsdlkfjsdf |
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21:51
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pgoetz |
The discussion is how best to back up several TB of data and store it offline for lengthy periods of time with a reasonable expectation that there won't be any loss of data integrity. |
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21:53
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pgoetz |
HDD and SSD are too unstable when unplugged for more than 6 months; tape seems to be pretty good, although not nearly as good as archival-grade optical disks. |
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21:54
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pgoetz |
midas: yeah, the (soon 200GB) blu-ray disks might be the middle path. For 12TB, this amounts to about 60 disks, which is just within the realm of managable. (Most of this data is stuff like images which are not very compressible) |
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22:00
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pgoetz |
LTO-6 lets you backup 3TB (uncompressed) per tape, which is pretty good. I still have some concerns about the longer term stability of the tapes, but I guess you just keep refreshing the tape at least once a year and keep 3 sets in rotation. |
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winr4r |
pgoetz: last i cared to look it up, tape has very good long-term durability if it's not stored in stupid conditions |
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22:03
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winr4r |
(source: a thing i read a few years ago that i can't remember but seemed well-reasoned, so don't take me too seriously) |
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pgoetz |
http://searchdatabackup.techtarget.com/tip/How-to-estimate-the-lifespan-of-LTO-tapes |
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22:05
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pgoetz |
This is what worries me. From that article: There is also the matter of obsolescence. The LTO specification, introduced in 1999, calls for an LTO drive to be able to read tapes two generations back. Thus, the current LTO-3 drives will read LTO-1 tapes, but the new LTO-4 won't read anything earlier than LTO-2. |
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winr4r |
ah, yeah |
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pgoetz |
The other thing is we manage several tape libraries at my day job and they're always screwing up: tapes get stuck, ripped up, etc.. |
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dashcloud |
on the AWS point mentioned earlier: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-amazon-is-so-hard-to-topple-in-the-cloud-and-where-everybody-else-falls-2015-10 |
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godane |
SketchCow: if i can find a way to get past the rate limit i can do kpfa |
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godane |
does anyone know how to do that? |
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