#archiveteam-bs 2015-12-12,Sat

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01:17 🔗 godane i'm at 540k items now
01:20 🔗 godane cause a bible app was downloaded 200 Million times i'm start to archive life.church videos
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02:24 🔗 godane SketchCow: i hope there is more issue of macworld from 1999
02:24 🔗 godane i only see 4 so far
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02:45 🔗 kyan vitzli: Oh, nice!
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05:06 🔗 SketchCow Macworld is more limited.
05:06 🔗 SketchCow 17:00 < JetBalsa> @textfiles is a fucking amazing dude FYI
05:06 🔗 SketchCow Fuck that guy
05:07 🔗 SketchCow he makes it about himself
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05:24 🔗 godane SketchCow: i see why
05:25 🔗 SketchCow Yeah
05:25 🔗 SketchCow I'm using some this and that resources.
05:25 🔗 godane it came from vintageapple.org people
05:25 🔗 SketchCow But this is helping me a lot, since I have all this in my storage container.
05:25 🔗 godane true
05:26 🔗 godane at least with macwould can give away the magazines from before 1996
05:26 🔗 godane and most of macaddict was scaned
05:27 🔗 godane only 2006 and 2007 was not with that one
05:27 🔗 godane SketchCow: so where are you going to get wired magazines from?
05:35 🔗 godane looks like there are some fun screw ups with the macworld file names
05:35 🔗 godane like MacWorld 9102 February 1992.pdf
05:38 🔗 godane anyways going to bed
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06:39 🔗 JesseW The #urlteam project scraping the dropbox shortener is pretty silly -- we've found 21 results in over 40 *million* checks...
06:40 🔗 JesseW but it keeps clicking over, so why not...
06:40 🔗 JesseW we've had nearly 3 *billion* wrong guesses for bitly shorturls
06:47 🔗 joepie91 pft
06:47 🔗 joepie91 HTTP requests are free
06:47 🔗 joepie91 :p
06:51 🔗 JesseW not "free" -- but literally "too cheap to meter" in many (but not all) contexts...
06:52 🔗 joepie91 free to us :D
06:52 🔗 joepie91 seriously though
06:52 🔗 joepie91 I have very little sympathy for URL shorteners
06:52 🔗 joepie91 if they don't want us scraping their thing by bruteforce, there's a very simple solution for that
06:52 🔗 joepie91 a dump of their links
06:52 🔗 joepie91 if they choose not to do that, well..
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06:53 🔗 JesseW No argument from me.
06:53 🔗 JesseW I found one that claimed to have a dump, but when I downloaded it, it was garbage. :-/
06:54 🔗 * joepie91 has been thinking about making "mirror to the Internet Archive" a simpler thing for people to implement
06:54 🔗 joepie91 would be nice to encourage devs to just mirror public content straight to IA
06:54 🔗 joepie91 saves a whole archival roundtrip
06:56 🔗 JesseW hm. say more?
06:56 🔗 JesseW which sorts of public content?
06:57 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: for example, for PDFy, every public upload is automatically and instantly uploaded to IA
06:57 🔗 joepie91 so even if PDFy went down all of a sudden, there'd be a full public copy of all public content
06:57 🔗 joepie91 down to the most recent document uploaded
06:57 🔗 joepie91 it's referenced from the document page, too
06:57 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: eg. https://pdf.yt/d/6x2W9mULACzD8LWh
06:58 🔗 joepie91 see the "Mirror" button
06:58 🔗 joepie91 it's all fully automated
06:59 🔗 JesseW ah, and you'd like to make that a drop-in solution, so other site developers could do the same?
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07:27 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: basically, yeah
07:27 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: there are only really three reasons why people wouldn't
07:27 🔗 joepie91 1) costs too much time/effort. not worth it
07:27 🔗 joepie91 2) "but all the content must be ephemeral!"
07:27 🔗 joepie91 3) business interests
07:27 🔗 joepie91 I hope to at least remove the first reason :P
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07:28 🔗 JesseW 4) disliking/distrusting IA in particular
07:29 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: can't say that I've ever seen that without reason 2
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07:32 🔗 JesseW joepie91: hm -- really, you haven't come across any of the jealous archivists out there, who want their content to stay around, but explicitly dont' want IA's help (or even passive involvement) in such preservation? I don't remember an example offhand, but I (vaguely) remember seeing instances of such.
07:34 🔗 kyan JesseW, I've seen those -_-
07:34 🔗 kyan Also this is scary http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/12/12/feds-warn-bogus-batch-syrian-passports-amid-report-isis-can-print-them/
07:35 🔗 JesseW kyan: first, consider the source.
07:35 🔗 kyan Source? I met them here
07:36 🔗 JesseW no, I meant the foxnews link
07:36 🔗 kyan oh
07:36 🔗 kyan I generally like Fox's reporting
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07:36 🔗 kyan (the people in the comments are jackasses, but whatever)
07:36 🔗 yipdw you know what else is just as scary
07:36 🔗 yipdw fake driver licenses
07:36 🔗 kyan I generally read Fox and Al Jazeera America
07:37 🔗 JesseW second, I'm pretty certain there are quite a few other things checked when admitting someone to the country besides a single document
07:37 🔗 kyan I guess, but it's still alarming.
07:37 🔗 JesseW in any case, I'm not inclined to get into a discussion on the subject here.
07:37 🔗 kyan It shows a level of technological ability and sophistication that is scary
07:37 🔗 pikhq JesseW: The reason Syrian passports are interesting is because of Syrian refugees being accepted rather easily.
07:38 🔗 yipdw you know what else shows a level of technological ability and sophistication that is scary
07:38 🔗 JesseW pikhq: as I understand (and I rather throughly have NOT been following the story) Syrian refugees are *not* being accepted rather easily -- in fact, quite the reverse.
07:38 🔗 yipdw Facebook usage
07:39 🔗 * JesseW agrees with yipdw
07:39 🔗 kyan I can use Facebook (somewhat), but I can't print passports -_-
07:39 🔗 yipdw the difference is that shit gets planned on there while that Fox News report is fearmongering
07:39 🔗 yipdw also SMS shows a similar scary level of technological sophistication
07:40 🔗 kyan terorists plan things on Facebook? Doesn't that make it easy to monitor?
07:40 🔗 yipdw we would all think so
07:40 🔗 kyan Anyway conversations about politics almost always deteriorate :3
07:40 🔗 pikhq It's not as though passport faking is some sort of *new* phenomenon, anyways.
07:40 🔗 * JesseW agrees with pikhq
07:42 🔗 pikhq Is it a problem? Sure. News? Okay. Some sort of major thing to be terrified of? Eh.
07:42 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: the only place where I've seen "archivists" and "developers" overlap, is IA/ArchiveTeam :P
07:43 🔗 JesseW joepie91: you haven't gotten out much, then. :-)
07:43 🔗 yipdw kyan: I think, really, that if you want to plan an attack operation, you are probably better off on something in-the-clear like Facebook *provided* that you can maintain e.g. compartmentalization of your attack identity and your real-world identity
07:43 🔗 JesseW IA has their fingers in a lot of pies, but hardly all of them.
07:43 🔗 yipdw and that you have a good, pre-arranged code with your co-conspirators
07:44 🔗 yipdw using something like Telegram or Signal is just too fucking obvious
07:44 🔗 kyan yipdw: Eh, anyway I *don't* want to plan an attack...
07:44 🔗 yipdw "you" not meaning you specifcally
07:44 🔗 kyan I figured. I was joking :P
07:44 🔗 kyan I guess it wasn't that funny...
07:44 🔗 * kyan hides in the corner
07:44 🔗 yipdw anyway compartmentalizing your life is really really hard so
07:47 🔗 yipdw ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOTE
07:47 🔗 yipdw docker run has some strangely strict command-line order
07:47 🔗 yipdw you have to do docker run OPTIONS IMAGE COMMAND; if you reverse IMAGE and OPTIONS the error is really strange
07:47 🔗 JesseW joepie91: example of a non-IA (although friendly, AFAIK) group: "Digital Preservation Outreach and Education Program" at the Library of Congress
07:48 🔗 JesseW yipdw: what's the error?
07:48 🔗 JesseW also -- arghgghh, that seems really frustrating
07:48 🔗 yipdw JesseW: it spits out stuff like "--name: executable not found in $PATH"
07:48 🔗 * JesseW dammit, getopt is HOW many decades old at this point?
07:48 🔗 yipdw which makes sense if you consider the strict arg order but is really baffling otherwise
07:49 🔗 yipdw or I should say "which makes sense if you are a computer"
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08:20 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: *nix stuff seems to be considered feature-complete on release, more often than not...
08:20 🔗 joepie91 (even when it's anything but)
08:22 🔗 JesseW joepie91: huh?
08:25 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: as in, built once, and now it's a part of everything and nobody ever rethinks the design
08:25 🔗 joepie91 which makes "how long has it been around for" a bit of a moot point, as the design iteration is missing ;)
08:27 🔗 JesseW ah.
08:28 🔗 JesseW hm -- I'm not sure if that's true. There certainly are various old tools whose interfaces haven't changed in a long time (although most of them were re-written (and had additional/changed interfaces) at least once by the GNU project)
08:29 🔗 JesseW but there are plenty of tools that change their interfaces /too/ often, also
08:29 🔗 joepie91 changing interfaces a lot isn't a problem, if versioned appropriately.
08:30 🔗 joepie91 unfortunately that is more or less impossible when you have a single global, flat dependency namespace ;)
08:30 🔗 JesseW and my comment about getopt was more -- why didn't docker use one of the flexible argument parsing libraries, rather than requiring such an inflexible positional design
08:30 🔗 JesseW global, flat dependency database => command-line ?
08:31 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: no, as in, the way dependencies work on *nix systems.
08:31 🔗 JesseW ah
08:31 🔗 joepie91 you generally have exactly one version of one thing installed
08:31 🔗 joepie91 and everything better work with it
08:31 🔗 joepie91 doing otherwise is a royal pain in the ass
08:31 🔗 JesseW er -- not with shared libraries;
08:31 🔗 JesseW or python versions (virtualenv)
08:32 🔗 joepie91 virtualenv is a massive hack, and doesn't solve the problem either.
08:32 🔗 joepie91 shared libraries have this problem too.
08:32 🔗 joepie91 virtualenv just isolates the dependencies for a particular project - it does not handle the case where two dependencies of said project require different versions of a given sub-dependency
08:32 🔗 JesseW clarify? I know there are *problems* with installing multiple versions, but I also know there *is* support for it...
08:33 🔗 JesseW (at the shared library level)
08:33 🔗 joepie91 because you still have a flat, 'global' dependency namespace, except it isolates it for that application and pretends that it's the global namespace
08:33 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: you do not have a good way to express API changes. you can have shared library versions, but no way to reliably distinguish between breaking and non-breaking API changes
08:34 🔗 JesseW ah, so by non-flat/global you mean the ability for A -> B, C ; B -> Dv1 ; C -> Dv2 ?
08:34 🔗 joepie91 yes.
08:34 🔗 joepie91 nested dependencies, in some way. not necessarily nested on the filesystem
08:34 🔗 joepie91 npm2 nests on the filesystem, npm3 flattens where possible, Nix has a flat store (like Git) but with a nested dependency representation based on hashes
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08:35 🔗 joepie91 all three are non-flat dependency systems
08:35 🔗 JesseW I do understand that isn't available with shared libraries -- but I'm pretty sure it *is* available with programs that call each other.
08:35 🔗 joepie91 there exists no versioning on a system-wide level, only in the packaging system
08:35 🔗 joepie91 and then you end up in version conflict hell real quick
08:35 🔗 JesseW hm
08:36 🔗 joepie91 because now Totem from the openSUSE repo requires this version of gstreamer
08:36 🔗 joepie91 but VLC from the VideoLAN repo requires another
08:36 🔗 joepie91 and the two are not compatible
08:36 🔗 joepie91 and now add a third video player from Packman, and welcome to hell
08:36 🔗 joepie91 because Videolan, openSUSE and Packman all ship their own version of gstreamer
08:36 🔗 joepie91 that works for THEIR version
08:37 🔗 joepie91 but either doesn't work with the others according to deps, or the deps say that it does but there are API incompatibilities because of vendor patches
08:37 🔗 JesseW wait, that isn't supported by the fact that the three versions have different version names in the shared libraries?
08:37 🔗 joepie91 no. because they may all be developing in a different direction, and as I said before, there's no good way to distinguish breaking from non-breaking API changes
08:38 🔗 joepie91 you can either increment the .so version number for every change, breaking or not, and now you can't reasonably dedupe dependencies
08:38 🔗 JesseW "good way to distinguish breaking from non-breaking API changes" -- isn't that the halting problem?
08:38 🔗 joepie91 or you can only increment it for breaking changes, in which case you run the risk of installing an older version to satisfy two packages at the same time
08:38 🔗 joepie91 but it doesn't work with one of them
08:38 🔗 joepie91 because every non-breaking API change is a breaking change when looking at it backwards
08:39 🔗 joepie91 there's no way to say "we know it'll work from this version up to this version" in .so versions
08:39 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: no
08:39 🔗 joepie91 API changes are defined by the publisher of software
08:39 🔗 joepie91 this is what eg. semver is for
08:39 🔗 joepie91 it's a way to express such changes in the versioning
08:39 🔗 joepie91 so that you can consistently define dependencies, and tolerate non-breaking API changes, without running into the aforementioned issu
08:39 🔗 joepie91 issue*
08:40 🔗 JesseW hm
08:40 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/9b9dbd8c9ac3b55a65b2#semantic-versioning for a tl;dr
08:40 🔗 joepie91 (it's also used outside of NPM)
08:40 🔗 joepie91 (NPM is just the only package ecosystem I've seen where it's almost consistently applied, so it's a great example case)
08:41 🔗 JesseW hm
08:41 🔗 PurpleSym Note there’s two things about API’s that can “break”, the actual interface (function signature, not the halting problem) or behavior (halting problem).
08:42 🔗 joepie91 basically, semver gives you the maximum possible deduplication without giving up API stability guarantees.
08:42 🔗 joepie91 PurpleSym: yeah, just talking about documented interface here.
08:42 🔗 joepie91 documentation is authorative; if the code doesn't behave as documented, that's a bug and should be released as patch release
08:42 🔗 joepie91 to bring the actual behaviour in line with the documentation.
08:44 🔗 * JesseW needs to go to sleep now. Thanks for the discussion, though -- it was informative; I'll need to read/think about it more.
08:45 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: last point: semver makes it effectively free to maintain two or more separate, API-incompatible branches
08:45 🔗 joepie91 which allows for better design iteration without necessarily breaking backwards compat
08:45 🔗 joepie91 which means better software
09:01 🔗 JesseW (I didn't actually go to sleep) -- can you expand on how one would maintain 2 (only 2, or unlimited?) API-incompatible branches with semvar?
09:04 🔗 JesseW (I'll read the logs)
09:06 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: unlimited. major version bump means backwards-incompatible API change(s), so you can eg. just maintain 1.x and 2.x and 3.x separately
09:06 🔗 joepie91 and release for each
09:06 🔗 joepie91 and semver-capable things will automatically do the right thing
09:06 🔗 joepie91 because you generally lock to a major version with a specific minimum
09:06 🔗 joepie91 (the specific minimum solves the "API additions are breaking when looking at it backwards" problem)
09:07 🔗 joepie91 so one application require libfoobar ^1.1.0 and another can require ^2.0.3 and yet another can require ^2.4.1
09:07 🔗 joepie91 and you're going to end up with the latest 1.x.x and the latest 2.x.x installed - but the 1.x.x will be guaranteed to be *at least* 1.1.0, and the 2.x.x will be guaranteed to be *at least* 2.4.1
09:08 🔗 JesseW isn't that already done, by just encoding the major version into the name, rather than the version? So you have python2 and python3 ...
09:08 🔗 JesseW ?
09:08 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: very hackily. it's not standard, and now you end up in invocation hell for that reason
09:08 🔗 joepie91 do I run python2? python3? what if it supports both? what if the user is using a distro that only has `python` and `python3`?
09:08 🔗 joepie91 do I need to call python2? but that will break on that distro. but if I call `python` then it might run 3 on some systems
09:08 🔗 joepie91 and so on, and so on
09:09 🔗 joepie91 you also still don't have a clear guarantee on API compatibility, meaning that you can't be certain that a later Python 3.x version will work with code written for earlier Python 3.x
09:09 🔗 joepie91 (there have been some issues around this with python2)
09:10 🔗 joepie91 JesseW: the fact that you need to encode versions into the package names because the versioning/dependency system isn't sufficient for providing API guarantees, is a pretty good sign that it's broken
09:10 🔗 JesseW heh. ok, that makes sense
09:10 🔗 joepie91 just like the need for environment variable hacks like virtualenv shows that Python's dependency model is broken :P
09:11 🔗 joepie91 it's all workarounds upon workarounds upon workarounds, because there is no solid, standardized, workable base system with the guarantees you need
09:11 🔗 joepie91 I mean, Nix is a giant hack too
09:11 🔗 joepie91 for that reason
09:12 🔗 joepie91 an elegant hack, but a hack nevertheless
09:13 🔗 JesseW well, the guarantees are cultural, not technical
09:14 🔗 joepie91 bit of both.
09:14 🔗 JesseW There are a few technical improvements that semvar and npm do, but they seem pretty minor -- the big benefit is the degree to which the *cultural* effort is put forward.
09:14 🔗 joepie91 the guarantees are not technically enforced, but they serve a technical purpose and have technical consequences
09:15 🔗 JesseW agreed
09:15 🔗 joepie91 and perhaps most importantly, it makes it much easier to say "hey, this patch violates your semver guarantees, that's a bug."
09:15 🔗 joepie91 it sidesteps the entire discussion about backwards compatibility :P
09:15 🔗 joepie91 you can still decide not to care about backwards compatibility, if you want
09:16 🔗 joepie91 and release a new major version every week
09:16 🔗 JesseW heh
09:16 🔗 joepie91 but it will be clear to users of your project that that is the case
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17:17 🔗 yipdw well this is an interesting Ubuntu bug
17:17 🔗 yipdw if you're on 14.04 LTS and do do-release-upgrade -d right now, you will not be prompted to update to 15.10
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17:18 🔗 yipdw you will be given 16.04 LTS
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17:18 🔗 yipdw there is probably a way to justify this as "not a bug", but there is also AFAICT no way to go from LTS to latest stable non-LTS using update-manager
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17:19 🔗 yipdw aside from s/trusty/wily/g in /etc/apt, I guess, but update-manager is supposed to, like, do this for me
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17:23 🔗 JesseW er, don't most upgrade systems upgrade you to the most highest available version, not the next one? Or is there an expectation that distribution upgrades always go one release at a time?
17:23 🔗 JesseW yipdw:
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17:24 🔗 yipdw JesseW: yes but 16.04 LTS is time traveling
17:25 🔗 JesseW it isn't out yet, or it just has a funny name...?
17:25 🔗 yipdw it isn't out yet
17:25 🔗 yipdw it's 16.04 LTS because it is scheduled for April 2016
17:25 🔗 yipdw anyway I just did the s/trusty/wily/g thing because that seems to be the only way to do it
17:25 🔗 JesseW Hm. So it's upgrading you to something that isn't available?
17:25 🔗 JesseW Strange.
17:25 🔗 yipdw it's available, but is horribly unstable
17:25 🔗 yipdw likely
17:25 🔗 JesseW Ha
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17:27 🔗 yipdw I mean, ok, it makes sense -- "do-release-upgrade -d" means "upgrade to latest devel", and if you're on LTS releases it works
17:27 🔗 yipdw but do-release-upgrade -d, if you're on not-LTS, boots you to the next stable
17:27 🔗 yipdw whatever
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17:28 🔗 yipdw I realize this is squarely in the It Works If You Think Like Me category of "bugs"
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21:48 🔗 JesseW You gotta love the wording on http://www.cryengine.com/news/the-new-cryenginecom-is-coming-next-week -- "we will no longer be hosting any old files that are related to Far Cry or Crysis games, or modding. The games and their modding communities have helped to build the CRYENGINE development community as we know it today, but ... we feel that they no longer fit in with our mission statement for the website and our engine. So please make sure to dow
21:48 🔗 JesseW Yeah, you folks built us up -- but FUCK YOU and your work. BURN IT ALL.
22:42 🔗 aaaaaaaaa Oh man, those moments where you are wrestling with something for hours only to realize you are using the wrong tools.
22:43 🔗 aaaaaaaaa and then get it in 15 minutes.
22:43 🔗 JesseW aaaaaaaaa: share the example?
22:45 🔗 aaaaaaaaa I've been trying to get a regular expression to chop up a URI the way I want. Only to realize that I can use string methods and conditionals.
22:45 🔗 JesseW hahahah. ah, the regex trap
22:45 🔗 JesseW sympathy
22:45 🔗 aaaaaaaaa I only really needed them to get everything up to the port number.
22:46 🔗 aaaaaaaaa but then I got stuck in the regex mind trap
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