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05:05
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murk |
pygithub is an interesting beast. |
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05:08
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murk |
thought it felt too easy, look over and it's using gigabytes of memory to iterate a list. |
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05:22
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* |
JesseW is reading over https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37 |
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05:25
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JesseW |
I was very struck by (my understanding of) a comment of moxie's about how OWS's goal is to make mass surveillance *technically* infeasible, rather than other possible goals (e.g. making a tool resistant to targeted surveillance, or furthering the development of communication standards). |
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05:29
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JesseW |
And I can see how making a single-source, closed development team product (which however, makes its code available, and encourages verification that it works the way it says it does) and aims to get massive adoption (by satisfying as many of the tastes, habits and preferences of the widest possible user base, even if those opinions have various other bad effects) -- could be a sensible way to achieve the goal (which again, was making mass surveillance |
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05:31
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JesseW |
The point of releasing Signal's code under a FOSS license *wasn't* and *isn't* to participate in the wider FOSS ecosystem -- it was to participate in the far narrower *security verification* community, and using a common FOSS license was merely a convenience. |
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05:44
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05:53
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joepie91 |
JesseW: my problem with that is twofold; 1) they have presented themselves as "open" in the past, which implies quite a bit more than that, and 2) opening themselves up to the 'security verification community' requires either reproducible builds (which, afaik, they do not have) or the ability to build and install your own version (which, afaik, you can't) |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
as you cannot otherwise be certain that the binary you are using is identical to the code you're looking at, functionally |
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05:53
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JesseW |
As I understood, they were actively working towards reproduciable builds? |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
"actively working towards" is not enough |
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05:54
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joepie91 |
another contradiction is in requiring google play services; this seems contradictory to "making mass surveillance technically infeasible" given that installing that on android requires you to bundle several other applications that could carry out precisely that mass surveillance |
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05:54
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JesseW |
Not enough for confidence, certainly -- but enough to support my theory of what their goals are. |
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05:56
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JesseW |
And regarding previous claims of additional "open"-ness -- moxie makes it clear that his views on what compromises of openness he needs to make to achieve his goal have changed -- that would certainly explain the difference from previous presentations. |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
JesseW: I'm sure it does, but that does not take away that it's a bit of a stab in the back towards the very community that has supported his efforts |
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05:57
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murk |
I'm not sure they can do reproducible iOS builds even if they wanted to. |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
the fact that his reasons for avoiding openness are shaky at best, don't really help with that either |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
for example, he gets the concepts of federation vs. open protocols mixed up |
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05:58
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joepie91 |
and bases half their policy on that mixup |
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05:58
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joepie91 |
I am not at all impressed with OWS'/moxies decisions, *even* in light of the goals you are sketching |
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05:58
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JesseW |
As I (partially) understand, the use of Google Play Services (that doesn't abbreviate well) don't get into the crypto parts, so wouldn't be able to undermine them. Am I wrong about that? |
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05:59
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JesseW |
murk: I'm not clear whether Signal even *works* on iOS or not. Do you know? |
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05:59
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05:59
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|
swebb sets mode: +o balrog |
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05:59
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joepie91 |
JesseW: yes. the problem with Google Play Services is that you cannot legally ship them on an Android system without also bundling several other Google applications, due to Google's licensing scheme. |
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05:59
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joepie91 |
those Google applications - especially given Google's tendency to collect all the data from everybody all the time - are a significant vector for surveillance. |
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05:59
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joepie91 |
whether with assistance from Google or not. |
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06:00
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joepie91 |
(there are antitrust investigations into the above licensing deal, btw, but that's how it is now) |
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06:00
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joepie91 |
it isn't terribly relevant whether Play Services can affect the crypto because it opens up other vectors |
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06:01
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JesseW |
OK, so we agree that the use of GoPlSr can't change whether the code distributed by OWS does or doesn't do what it is claimed to do, right? |
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06:01
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joepie91 |
creative abbrevation there :) |
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06:02
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joepie91 |
but yeah, that in and of itself sounds correct, as I understand it. |
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06:02
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JesseW |
Rather, the problem is that installing the GoPlSr's makes the *whole device* more vulnerable to survilence than it was otherwise. |
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06:02
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joepie91 |
correct |
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06:02
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|
ranma |
https://twitter.com/nixcraft/status/741606457620062208 |
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06:03
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|
murk |
JesseW: it works. |
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06:03
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JesseW |
I strongly suspect moxie's view is that, while that it is certainly deplorable, Signal avoiding the use of them isn't going to make much of a dent in how many devices have them installed (and *will* make a dent in how many people use Signal) |
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06:04
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|
murk |
whatsapp using the signal protocol makes a bigger difference. |
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06:04
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JesseW |
murk: ah, interesting -- and why are reproducible builds impossible there? |
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06:04
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joepie91 |
JesseW: that's a questionable assertion |
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06:04
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|
joepie91 |
and very geographically dependent |
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06:05
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JesseW |
so that's another bit I'm confused by -- what's the interoperability situation between WhatsApp and Signal? |
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06:05
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|
ranma |
tl;dr re: twitter: 7,618 out of approximately 383,000 emails (1.9%) were leaked by let's encrypt |
|
06:05
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joepie91 |
in Asian countries, for example, it is not *at all* a valid assumption that a mass market device will run Google Play Services |
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06:05
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joepie91 |
JesseW: and even if that weren't the case, it ignores the network effect. |
|
06:06
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|
joepie91 |
JesseW: actively privacy-conscious people are unable to use Signal to talk to their social circles that might be using it, due to this requirement. |
|
06:06
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|
JesseW |
I also suspect moxie may not be aiming at an Asian userbase (or combating the mass survilence applied to them). |
|
06:06
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|
joepie91 |
something that could have easily been resolved by light-weight interoperability processes (eg. automated changelog mailing just before rollout) with the LibreSignal team |
|
06:07
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|
joepie91 |
in agreement that LibreSignal bugs are handled first and foremost by the LibreSignal team |
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06:07
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|
joepie91 |
so that OWS never gets to deal with itr |
|
06:07
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|
joepie91 |
it* |
|
06:07
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|
joepie91 |
but instead, moxie throws gasoline over it and sets it on fire |
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06:07
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|
joepie91 |
the entire assertion that the existence of LibreSignal will cause problems for OWS is just plain false |
|
06:08
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|
JesseW |
Let's switch over to the point you brought up about moxie getting "the concepts of federation vs. open protocols mixed up" |
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06:08
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|
JesseW |
Can you expand on that? |
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06:08
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joepie91 |
JesseW: he wrote an entire rant about how federation is dead because it's too hard to keep implementations in sync |
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06:08
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JesseW |
yes, I read it |
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06:08
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joepie91 |
but this is a problem of open protocols, not of federation specifically |
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06:08
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joepie91 |
and specifically for federation there are solutions for that. |
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06:08
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JesseW |
how do you federate without an open protocol? |
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06:09
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joepie91 |
you don't, that is not what I am arguing. |
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06:09
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joepie91 |
I'm arguing that he is pointing at federation as the cause when it isn't. |
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06:09
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joepie91 |
ANY kind of open protocol will have these issues. |
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06:09
🔗
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joepie91 |
that includes federation-less open protocols. |
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06:09
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joepie91 |
the fact that he cannot accurately pinpoint the cause of the problem puts the rest of his arguments on shaky ground |
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06:10
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joepie91 |
especially since it now demonizes the entire concept of federation in the public perception |
|
06:10
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|
joepie91 |
despite it being a decision that he made individually, specifically for Signal, in light of their goals |
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06:10
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JesseW |
OK, but I thought he was arguing against open protocols, and merely pointing out that *because* open protocols can't change fast enough, *therefore* federation is a non-starter, *too* |
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06:10
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joepie91 |
that's definitely not how I read it, nor anybody who I've talked to about it |
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06:10
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joepie91 |
and the entire concept of federation has taken a good hit |
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06:11
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joepie91 |
he has single-handedly fucked up a large part of what open-source communities have worked for over a decade on building up |
|
06:11
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JesseW |
Eh, I wouldn't be surprised if I read it in an unusual way, certainly. |
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06:11
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JesseW |
Ha. I hardly think he was alone in that. People (including prominent FOSS people) have done such things before (and likely will again) |
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06:12
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joepie91 |
JesseW: I have seen a distinct shift since this article came out. |
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06:14
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JesseW |
ok, so what you meant by him mixing up "the concepts of federation vs. open protocols" was him claiming that *only* federation, rather than open protocols in general, evolve too slowly to compete against single-source products? |
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06:15
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joepie91 |
JesseW: correct. |
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06:15
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joepie91 |
(aside from that mixup, the entire assertion is also questionable to begin with) |
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06:15
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joepie91 |
(given that basically the only baseline is XMPP and XMPP is *extremely* poorly designed) |
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06:15
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joepie91 |
... I need to sleep |
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06:16
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JesseW |
OK, I won't keep you. Thanks for the discussion! |
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06:16
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06:16
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JesseW |
Hi Erik |
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06:16
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joepie91 |
JesseW: perhaps continue later :) I have a bunch more thoughts on the topic and specifically why federated protocols have had trouble so far |
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06:16
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JesseW |
I'd be interested to hear them, yes. |
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06:16
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joepie91 |
as well as open protocols in general... |
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06:16
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joepie91 |
anyhow, sleep |
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06:16
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joepie91 |
for now |
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06:17
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joepie91 |
night! |
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06:17
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bwn |
gnite |
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06:17
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JesseW |
g'night! |
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06:17
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JesseW |
what timezone are you in, anyway? |
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06:17
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joepie91 |
(Random Standard Time - my sleep pattern is irregular) |
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06:17
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JesseW |
lol |
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06:18
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joepie91 |
(seriously though, NL) |
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06:18
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JesseW |
well, enjoy your current period of artificial night. |
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06:56
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06:59
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JesseW |
PurpleSym: have you turned off your bot? |
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07:00
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PurpleSym |
Yes, JesseW, it’ll be back later this week, after making it less “chatty”. |
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07:01
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JesseW |
Sounds good. |
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07:21
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07:28
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ranma |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/06/13/redditors-checked-rnews-for-updates-on-the-orlando-shooting-instead-they-found-a-war/ |
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07:28
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ranma |
i wonder if reddit could be backed up somehow, protecting comments as inane and stupid as they are |
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07:29
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|
ranma |
with comments being indicated as being deleted |
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07:30
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Atluxity |
what is this "protecting" you speak of? |
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07:30
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ranma |
there was a mildly interesting post that i found out the OP's text post had been deleted after he'd axed his account: https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/4km3yc/finally_fired_after_6_years/ |
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07:30
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ranma |
mods delete posts |
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07:31
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ranma |
in this case, occasionally (in the grand scheme of things) improperly |
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07:32
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ranma |
per wapo, even posts mentioning how to donate blood were deleted |
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07:32
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Atluxity |
you want to protect the comments from deletion? |
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07:33
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Atluxity |
you use the word "protect" without context, it makes it hard to figure out what you want to protect FROM |
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07:33
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Atluxity |
protect from viewing, from modification, from deletion? |
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07:33
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ranma |
if it were an easy problem to fix |
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07:34
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|
ranma |
protection from deletion |
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07:34
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Atluxity |
ah, right |
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07:36
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ranma |
i'm assuming there's a lot of noise to the post's signal |
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07:36
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ranma |
but if legit, good content is being lost to moderators/automods |
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07:37
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ranma |
that slightly disturbs me |
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07:47
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Atluxity |
it is impossible for us to judge today what will be valueable in the future |
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07:48
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11:49
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whydomain |
PurpleSym: did that list of Yahoo Groups you gave me months ago include private groups with messages that can only be archived if you are a member of that group? |
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11:50
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PurpleSym |
whydomain: Quite a few. |
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11:50
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whydomain |
Have you got a way of archiving these private groups? |
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11:51
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PurpleSym |
1483853 of 2752112 have public messages, according to my stats in the AT wiki. |
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11:51
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PurpleSym |
I don’t. |
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11:51
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whydomain |
Thanks. I may have found a way for some- I'll investigate |
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11:52
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PurpleSym |
Last time I checked it required solving a captcha. |
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11:52
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whydomain |
Oh, don't suppose you have that list of groups available (I've left it on a memory stick somewhere) |
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11:53
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whydomain |
Captcha is not required if you sign up by email |
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11:53
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PurpleSym |
Oh, I see. And that email is connected to your Yahoo! Account and therefore you are permitted access? |
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11:54
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PurpleSym |
It’s still available at the old URL: https://6xq.net/paste/yg_list.txt.xz |
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11:54
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whydomain |
It's connected in some weird way - that's what I'm still looking into |
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12:01
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12:02
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PurpleSym |
That wouldn’t be weird at all, imo. |
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12:04
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whydomain |
I thinks it's OK if the group automatically allows new members to join and view messages immediately - it won't work if moderator approval is required, anyway |
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12:05
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12:05
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PurpleSym |
Let’s just buy Yahoo! Groups. |
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12:11
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ErkDog |
loil |
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12:12
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whydomain |
I wonder if the buyers of Yahoo will want Groups? News reports say Yahoo is selling its "core business" - I doubt that includes Groups |
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12:12
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whydomain |
At any rate, Messenger didn't make the cut. Closure announced yesterday - for 'streamlining' |
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12:15
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PurpleSym |
Groups’ best times have been in the early 2000’s. There doesn’t seem to be much “growth potential”, so it’s likely gonna get axed. |
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12:16
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PurpleSym |
(Well, mid-2000.) |
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16:20
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godane |
g4tv.com-video6548: Emerging Technology Conference: https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video6548 |
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16:21
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godane |
SAVED |
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16:21
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godane |
Cory Doctorow was in that one |
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16:28
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godane |
looks like it was saved back in 2013 but was in my unpublic folder for some reason |
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godane |
this item is sort darked: https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video8318 |
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17:46
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godane |
but the log as no make dark command so it odd to me |
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17:49
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xmc |
hm yeah, that is weird |
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17:57
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godane |
ok not just me |
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17:58
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godane |
also i was the only one that touched based on the log |
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18:05
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xmc |
i see modify_xml from SketchCow but that's just changing the collection |
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18:05
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18:06
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godane |
true |
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18:07
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godane |
i had to get permission for a collection after flooding community videos with my g4tv.com videos |
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18:07
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xmc |
heh |
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18:07
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godane |
i was flooding the rss feeds for community videos with that |
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18:09
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xmc |
i love how people complain that you upload things |
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18:09
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xmc |
i don't get it tbh |
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18:09
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xmc |
they complain that you're using up resources ... ok ... my monthly donation pays for godane's videos and then some, they can shove it |
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18:19
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godane |
the forum post talking about me flooding it: https://archive.org/post/553961/g4tv |
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18:24
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Frogging |
isn't there already a G4 collection? |
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18:24
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Frogging |
https://archive.org/details/g4video-web |
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18:24
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Frogging |
or is this the one you're talking about |
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18:24
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Frogging |
(I just remember looking for G4 stuff some months ago..) |
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18:30
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Medowar |
yep, that is the one. |
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18:31
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Medowar |
and the top 6 videos all contain sexy. Oh well, internet you never disappoint |
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19:42
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Medowar |
OK, I soon have quiet some hard drive storage. Around 20TB. Not yet sure, what to do with it. |
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19:43
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Medowar |
any ideas? Right now I dont have a way to put them in a server and make them available to the public.. |
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19:52
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joepie91 |
[14:05] <PurpleSym> Let’s just buy Yahoo! Groups. |
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19:52
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joepie91 |
I'm pitching in $10, that should bring us halfway there |
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19:52
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Smiley |
lol |
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19:52
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joepie91 |
:P |
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19:53
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PurpleSym |
Not quite, I guess. But seriously: I wonder how much we’d have to offer for it. |
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19:54
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joepie91 |
it'd be interesting to see what's cheaper - scraping it or just outright buying it |
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19:54
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joepie91 |
lol |
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19:55
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bwn |
i have three magic beans i'll pitch in.. |
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19:55
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joepie91 |
bwn: blue or red ones? |
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19:55
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PurpleSym |
Yep, that’s exactly what I though, joepie91. |
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19:56
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bwn |
which would you like? *gets colored markers* |
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19:56
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joepie91 |
hahaha |
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19:56
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PurpleSym |
Do you have … purple? |
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19:56
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joepie91 |
this man knows how to do business :p |
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19:57
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bwn |
*blue and red* |
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19:59
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JW_work1 |
Medowar: can you use it for IA.BAK? |
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20:03
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Medowar |
JW_Work1: Yes, but that is more of a backup-Plan. I want to see, if there is any other more usefull way. I see IA.BAK more of a way to utilize empty disk space.. |
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20:04
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Medowar |
Also, any cheap and simple way to connect 8 Drives to a PC? Doesnt need to be high-speed. I currently have only a 2-Bay HDD Dock |
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20:05
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JW_work1 |
SATA-to-USB, and a USB hub? |
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20:06
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JW_work1 |
Medowar: well, considering that we have many many TB still to hand out, we can certainly use 20 more. |
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20:06
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Medowar |
True that. |
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20:07
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Medowar |
But some are WD Red Drives, that I want to use more actively. If only I knew a cheap colo provider in Germany |
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20:33
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xmc |
god i would love to get yahoo groups and just shove all the stuff into a Mailman style public site |
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20:42
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godane |
xmc: another one that is blocked but not darked: http://catalogd.archive.org/history/g4tv.com-video10529 |
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20:42
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xmc |
weird |
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20:43
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godane |
its xplay review for nhl2k6 for xbox 360 |
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20:50
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godane |
another one: http://catalogd.archive.org/history/g4tv.com-video10587 |
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20:54
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godane |
i have now audit up to 10xxx for g4tv.com video grabs |
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21:25
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21:46
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godane |
g4tv.com-video12175-flvhd: The Daily Nut - 07.19.06 : https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video12175 |
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21:47
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godane |
SAVED |
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21:53
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godane |
g4tv.com-video12405: Comic Con '06: Crank's Jason Statham : https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video12405 |
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22:02
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godane |
this one was at least has dark in history: https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video12634 |
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22:02
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godane |
its marked as spam |
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22:04
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godane |
video is about Las Vegas brothel |
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23:42
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godane |
xmc: another item dark but log not saying it: https://archive.org/details/g4tv.com-video14575 |
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23:42
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xmc |
ok |