[00:04] *** kristian_ has quit IRC (Leaving) [00:36] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/photographer-sues-getty-images-for-selling-photos-she-donated-to-public/ [00:37] A well-known American photographer has now sued Getty Images and other related companies—she claims they have been wrongly been selling copyright license for over 18,000 of her photos that she had already donated to the public for free, via the Library of Congress. [...] Getty must therefore account for well over one billion dollars ($1B) in statutory copyright damages in this case. [00:37] (note: the 1B is the demand) [00:45] *** robink has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [00:50] *** RichardG has quit IRC (Quit: Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue) [00:52] *** RichardG has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:11] *** robink has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:20] *** DoomTay has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) [01:53] *** JesseW has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:58] *** DoomTay has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:05] I don [02:05] I don [02:06] I don't know where https://archive.org/details/portalgraphics-20160618224205 came from, but I think it's supposed to be a web format [02:14] *** robink has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 1208 seconds) [02:23] *** BartoCH has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [02:29] *** robink has joined #archiveteam-bs [03:14] *** metalcamp has joined #archiveteam-bs [03:35] i'm looking at my scanner again [03:35] there is still no support for linux [03:35] even the vuescan page will say no on linux support: https://web.archive.org/web/20140302163727/http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/plustek_opticbook_4800.html [03:36] old and current [04:01] oops [04:01] 8:05 EST: It looks like members from /r/altright have been preemptively banned from /r/The_Donald. Here's a thread about the ban. - /u/vr4el and others. [04:01] 7:31 EST: Trump has made two short comments. The two highest voted comments are deleted. Screenshot of top comment and some of its responses -/u/stopscopiesme [04:01] do AMAs get slurped up by IA or someone? [04:05] *** metalcamp has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [04:12] I know DeviantArt isn [04:13] isn't showing any real signs of danger right now apart from that "open letter" from a few weeks ago, but I couldn't help but think about how the archival project would be managed [04:13] Mainly how if it was a warrior project, people would probably want to have their machines prioritize certain artists or images, and the warrior "engine" doesn't allow for that, does it? [04:14] yes, we have a copy of that trainwreck from archivebot, in case the moon archivists of the future want to know why the Earth is a blasted hellscape [04:16] A part of me wants to actually read a bit of that AMA [04:41] *** Sk1d has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 194 seconds) [04:47] *** Sk1d has joined #archiveteam-bs [05:00] *** wp494 has quit IRC (Quit: LOUD UNNECESSARY QUIT MESSAGES) [05:08] *** zgrant has quit IRC (Leaving.) [05:19] *** ndiddy has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [05:27] I see that we haven't updated the secretword yet [05:28] I thought that yahoo sucks now more than ever, given what could possibly be happening [05:29] certainly, but shouldn't we call it yahzon now? [05:29] or verioo [05:29] verihoo? [05:30] verizoo! sounds like a fun plastic musical instrument [05:30] Dang, beat me to it [05:31] cheap plastic -- probably breaks quickly [05:32] yeah, you'd need to get the 3 pack :( [05:33] yahoo + verizon = vyearhiozoon, if we're going for the eldritch, unpronounceable by human tongues version... [05:34] or yvaehroiozon, the other way around [05:35] or voeorhiazyon or veoroihzaoyn [05:40] almost sounds like supervillain names [05:41] I keep thinking of https://youtu.be/IPG3eDTy-yo?t=968 [05:56] *** VADemon has joined #archiveteam-bs [06:07] *** JesseW has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 370 seconds) [06:09] *** DoomTay has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) [06:11] *** DoomTay has joined #archiveteam-bs [06:12] I'm not sure whether to mark portalgraphics as saved or partially saved [06:12] The warrior wasn't able to get 500-some-odd users in time, but I myself was able to get each user's info page and every page of their gallery [06:13] Or should it wait until the archives actually become available? [06:19] *** Aranje has quit IRC (Quit: Three sheets to the wind) [06:20] *** DoomTay has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) [06:25] *** metalcamp has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:20] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [07:27] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:34] *** BlueMaxim has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [07:38] *** schbirid has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:11] *** DiscantX has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:38] *** BlueMaxim has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:40] *** BartoCH has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:42] *** kristian_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [09:24] *** kristian_ has quit IRC (Leaving) [09:38] *** BlueMaxim has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [09:39] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [09:44] *** JW_work has joined #archiveteam-bs [09:49] *** JW_work1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 633 seconds) [10:04] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [10:21] *** DiscantX has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [11:40] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [11:44] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [11:58] *** joepie91_ is now known as joepie91 [11:59] https://twitter.com/joepie91/status/758632151952883713 [12:29] *** midas1 is now known as midas [12:36] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [12:45] *** zgrant has joined #archiveteam-bs [12:52] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [13:11] *** ravetcofx has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [13:38] *** ravetcofx has joined #archiveteam-bs [14:04] *** ravetcofx has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [15:04] Is there a way to do an SSH tunnel without encryption? I'm trying to minimize CPU usage [15:05] it doesn't even have to be SSH, just something similar in concept with the SOCKS proxy [15:05] i doubt, but you can change the cipher to something faster though [15:06] ssh -Q cipher lists your available ciphers [15:07] *** GLaDOS has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:08] I wonder why they don't have a "none" cipher or something, like openvpn [15:08] well, if you do so, the "secure" in "secure shell" is meaningless [15:08] you're back to the rsh days [15:11] Sometimes it doesn't need to be secure though as much as it needs to be fast. The SSH protocol is pretty versatile [15:28] *** DoomTay has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:28] first result on my googlebot [15:28] http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/112287/copy-files-without-encryption-ssh-in-local-network [15:28] Frogging: what's the problem you're trying to solve? [15:28] with a dumb query [15:29] joepie91: CPU usage with SSH tunnels [15:29] But it turns out that was actually caused by compression [15:29] Frogging: I mean the problem. not the bottleneck you're running into [15:29] like, what are you trying to do [15:29] why are you using SSH, what's the purpose [15:29] ah [15:29] the higher-level situation :P [15:30] so I have a server in Europe, and downloading from it on my home connection is quite slow (less than 1MB/s). But my VPS (which I assume is better peered) can max out its uplink [15:30] so from my house, tunneling through the VPS to access the server results in much faster transfer speeds [15:30] right [15:31] well, my usual recommendation would be an openvpn-in-a-box setup [15:31] I tried openvpn actually. It was quite a bit slower than SSH for some reason [15:31] there's a few scripts for this [15:31] shouldn't be [15:31] might just be misconfigured [15:31] yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is [15:31] packets are packets :P [15:31] indeed [15:31] Frogging: ex. https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/10587/openvpn-automated-installer [15:31] but maybe the encapsulation of TCP into UDP is causing a problem? [15:32] TCP-in-TCP with openvpn is actually far worse though [15:34] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [15:35] lowest overhead you can have is by using netcat [15:41] *** JesseW has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:42] I wonder what the difference is between connecting directly to the server, and connecting through the VPS, that makes it faster [15:43] maybe I skip a shitty route over the ocean by using a DC [15:44] man I am so glad there is no "none" cipher in ssh [15:44] imagine the Stack Overflow answers [15:44] yipdw: *cough* like in ssl? *cough* [15:44] "How do I make this faster?" [15:44] BartoCH: yeah [15:45] the null cipher suite is such a dumb idea [15:45] yipdw: or the export ones [15:45] well reducing overhead when security isn't a priority isn't a bad idea [15:45] BartoCH: well we have history for that one so there's reasns [15:45] yipdw: yeah, but i'm still surprised it's somewhat still supported [15:45] me too [15:45] and not denied to use [15:46] if you have to enable it explicitly I don't see what the problem is [15:46] the problem is people reading the internet and thinking that they measured the bottleneck correctly [15:47] if you change the setting and it makes it faster then it was a bottleneck, if it doesn't work you can change it back [15:48] I don't believe in cutting off arms to reduce joint pain, although it definitely does that [15:48] as with joint pain, you are usually better off figuring out what the real problem is (e.g. compression overhead) than tweaking knobs without risk analysis [15:48] anyway [15:49] cipher is not often the bottleneck, it's more often compression+I/O. [15:49] it's about priorities, some applications are either already secured on a higher layer or they don't need to be secured anyway [15:49] * yipdw just wishes security code would provide fewer options because in reality you just don't have a spectrum of choice [15:50] and it's getting better with faster ciphers etc [15:50] providing knobs to sysadmins is like laser pointers to cats [15:53] I prefer tools to be versatile rather than the developers deciding which use cases aren't important [15:54] k [15:58] but, they're open source. so at least people wishing to experiment or fulfil special requirements can modify them. [15:59] normally I agree [16:00] however with protocols (security, but also other things, like XMPP) I don't think having a wide range of options there is really that helpful [16:01] well XMPP is an instance; let's say "communication protocols generally" [16:02] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:03] one example that gets cited a lot with security protocol options and why they're a headache is protocol version negotiation, but going even beyond that, having a lot of knobs can just make it a pain in the ass to talk [16:04] Yeah, that makes sense. I guess it depends on how many people are generally using an instance. There's less leeway in running, for example, a public website. Compared to a private storage server used by one or two people who know how it's configured [16:04] most protocols nowadays do not really specify fixed ciphers, it's more thought to be extended from start. [16:04] i once tried to do a video call with a co-worker over XMPP. theoretically this is possible with XMPP/Jingle. we spent an hour trying to figure out why our servers couldn't talk and eventually just went to Skype [16:04] I mean we could text chat fine, because that's the base layer (most? all?) XMPP servers implement [16:05] in a case like that I would have preferred that XMPP define one way to do it and one way to say "this server doesn't implement this extension, install this" [16:06] this is a tricky problem and it really clashes with what BartoCH alludes to re protocol evolution [16:06] it's also a bit of what Moxie Marlinspike was talking about w/r/t why Signal is centralized [16:06] anyway I went way off the rails didn't I [16:06] does XMPP allow so much variation in implementations or do people just not read the spec? Because I did find XMPP a bit of a nightmare with regard to various clients supporting features and supporting them properly [16:06] I think a little of column A, little of column B [16:07] mind you, I haven't *tried* to do a video call since then. it's totally possible it's gotten better but the initial experience wasn't that good, and these days people want to video call on Skype or FaceTime or Webex or GoToMeeting [16:07] i sadly do not have enough friends that are into xmpp, so sad [16:07] I had carbon copying enabled, which ostensibly syncs messages between clients. Sending a message on my PC would make it appear on my phone but not the other way around [16:08] i have given up on xmpp [16:09] another place where options cause amazingly complicated behavior is HTTP content negotiation [16:09] i was happy with it when facebook had c2s and google had s2s [16:09] and then they both dropped it [16:09] yipdw: with this extensibility, i just find it sad that nobody is getting itself into the mud and try new things in term of crypto primitives. [16:09] so now i only talk to people i can reach from my irc client [16:09] I think that only works because people invest huge sums of money into making it mostly okay [16:10] *** JesseW has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 370 seconds) [16:11] BartoCH: well there's the Salsa/ChaCha families [16:11] and everything else by djb [16:11] were you thinking of something else? [16:11] yep, sadly he's the only one getting into it [16:12] i'd love to see some post quantum algorithms that are well researched and used. Maybe i ask too much too :) [16:13] those'd be cool, I know basically nothing about those [16:14] except trying to read a few papers on the McEliece system [16:14] i know research will soon get their hands on it too [16:15] but yeah, I do wonder how XMPP would have turned out differently if someone found money in it [16:16] would we have better success with different sorts of connections? would it still be decentralized? [16:21] heh, that reminds me -- in 2005(?) I did a first cut of a collaborative whiteboarding program that sent SVG over XMPP [16:22] it worked (ish) but only on certain servers due to things like differing rate limits and message sizes and stuff [16:22] I never finished it but it was an interesting introduction to how tricky this stuff can get even when you factor out the algorithmic bits that aren't related to different environments [16:23] sounds nifty [16:24] it was fucking awesome [16:24] when it worked [16:24] :| [16:24] xmpp is a nice platform, when it works [16:24] but it was a Summer of Code project and my attention was shot when I went back to school [16:25] D: [16:25] it might still be in Inkscape, I dunno [16:38] *** SmileyG has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:41] *** Smiley has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [16:52] I'm so glad we're mostly past the days of imageshack and photobucket [16:52] terrible, terrible websites. [16:53] the internet used to be great, and also suck [16:59] [18:05] in a case like that I would have preferred that XMPP define one way to do it and one way to say "this server doesn't implement this extension, install this" [16:59] it does, though [16:59] Frogging: dont check out what imgur.com is turning into then [16:59] implement a way to say "this isn't supported" [16:59] but lots of servers and clients handle this incorrectly [16:59] and nobody seems to bother fixing it [16:59] !ao http://e-shuushuu.net/image/849462/ [16:59] [18:06] it's also a bit of what Moxie Marlinspike was talking about w/r/t why Signal is centralized [16:59] schbirid: yeah they are starting to go downhill [16:59] problem is that Moxie mistakes "this is what happens with XMPP" for "this is what happens with federated protocols" [16:59] i installed whatsapp the other week [16:59] and those are two wildly different things [17:00] after waiting years for signal to gain any traction [17:00] *** aschmitz has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:00] they were too late, too little with non android [17:00] [18:07] mind you, I haven't *tried* to do a video call since then. it's totally possible it's gotten better but the initial experience wasn't that good, and these days people want to video call on Skype or FaceTime or Webex or GoToMeeting [17:00] it hasn't :P [17:00] it's still almost always broken, and I think that specifically XMPP as a protocol is a dead end [17:01] from a long-term perspective [17:01] just use webrtc for video call [17:01] its XML nature drives away almost everybody and makes it hard enough to implement that people don't consider it worth the effort [17:01] https://meet.jit.si/ \o( [17:01] and so they just roll their own instead [17:01] joepie91: disclaimer: I don't know what I'm talking about. But I don't think XML has anything to do with it [17:01] Frogging: trust me, it has [17:01] It's not hard to implement [17:01] I've spoken to many, *many* developers over the years [17:01] relatively speaking, it absolutely is [17:02] really? you just pull in a library [17:02] xml has a reputation for being unpleasant, and so drives people away even if they don't have to touch it directly [17:02] it's one of *the* most complex wire serialization protocols to deal with [17:02] the library isn;'t the problem [17:02] the fact that it doesn't map neatly to native structures in *any* language, is [17:02] heyyy why not asn.1 [17:02] that's its point of failure [17:02] that makes sense actually [17:02] there's a native equivalent representation of JSON in almost every language [17:02] same for all the derivatives [17:02] soooo, is there a single wget/wpull line that will get me just the zip files with a directory structure of their url? http://www.zillow.com/howto/api/neighborhood-boundaries.htm [17:02] hell, even structs can be mapped directly to language types [17:03] especially compared to JSON which explicitly implements every common data structure [17:03] but XML fails this completely - you need to constantly work with queries or getters of some variety to get any useful data out of it [17:03] and that makes it very hard to really comprehend the structure you're working with [17:03] you have to do too much mental translation [17:03] it's tree-based, which doesn't help [17:03] i am sure you could create xml that does what json does [17:04] super redundantly [17:04] I think the problem with XML as a format is that it tries to cover 100% of cases, is over-engineered for 99% of them, yet tries to market itself for 100% [17:04] when in reality its effective marketshare is just that 1% that stuff like JSON doesn't cover [17:04] (effectively) [17:07] *** VADemon has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:16] I can't help but think the datatype for https://archive.org/details/portalgraphics-20160618224205 should be "web" [17:16] *** aschmitz has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:18] Hey look, https://archive.org/details/tucows_34792_THOMAS_Legislative_Database [18:53] are we aware of this? https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/ (Gmane, mailing list archive is shutting down) [18:54] also, is that worth of #archiveteam? :P [18:54] oh schbirid beat me to it [18:54] fuck y'all [18:54] :P [18:54] joepie91: agreed with you. And when it comes to upper layers of xml such as RDF or OWL you can really start to cry. [18:59] alfie: and I beat schbirid to it :P [18:59] * alfie slaps joepie91 with an overused joke [19:00] * schbirid beats joepie91 with meat [19:01] um... :P [19:01] joepie91: did you find the blogpost through an /r/programming link, by any chance? [19:02] joepie91: if so, the guy who posted that reached out to me on freenode and i said i'd make AT aware >.< [19:05] o_O [19:09] the internet is fuckin' tiny [19:11] I don't know (or think) we'll do a grab of it... Last thing we want to do essentially DDOS him :) [19:12] Igloo: I'm sure he'd be receptive to someone from "The Internet Archive" (don't shoot me) reaching out to him and asking for a copy [19:12] seems like he's open to get contacted for a backup even prolly a takeover. [19:12] yes [19:12] i'd like to see it live on [19:12] alfie: we are not the internet archive. [19:12] :P [19:12] But possibly [19:12] Igloo: i know, hence the quotes :P [19:12] *** tomwsmf has joined #archiveteam-bs [19:14] I could potentially take a mirror but doubt I could take the whole weight without some serious investment [19:15] [21:01] joepie91: did you find the blogpost through an /r/programming link, by any chance? [19:15] nop [19:15] picked it up somewhere else [19:15] joepie91: oshet [19:15] forgot where [19:15] hackernews? :P [19:15] What about wumpus? [19:15] Isn't he an IA employee? [19:15] oh hold on [19:15] actually MrRadar posted it first [19:16] the internet is pretty high-speed :P [19:16] joepie91: not mine >.> i'm getting single-digit kilobytes per second sometimes [19:16] i want my internet back [19:17] I want my gigabit fibre back :( [19:17] Igloo: can i share [19:17] Sure [19:18] * alfie runs a cat6 to Igloo [19:18] You can pay the rent on the london apartment, I'll get the internet bill ;) [19:18] ha, you don't live all that far from me then [19:18] or didn't, anyway [19:22] I live down there part time now [19:23] Not full time like I used to :) [19:24] you are dangerously close [19:24] to me [19:26] *** ndiddy has joined #archiveteam-bs [19:46] * alfie is based in watford [19:51] * HCross is just over the way in Hatfield :) [20:01] *** kristian_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [20:01] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [20:08] Anyone in coventry D: [20:08] Gotta ask, maybe one day I'll find someone, real :P [20:17] * DoomTay is all the way in Florida [20:18] *** Coderjoe has joined #archiveteam-bs [20:28] florida man! we found you! [20:31] *** ndiddy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [20:37] *** anjacks0n has joined #archiveteam-bs [21:00] *** schbirid has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [21:01] Well it looks like the portalgraphics warrior project is pretty much done. Question is, I'm not sure whether to label it "saved" or "partially saved" [21:01] The warrior couldn't get 500-some-odd artists in time, but my own efforts means even they would still have the "profile" page and gallery [21:03] *** metalcamp has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [21:25] *** kristian_ has quit IRC (Leaving) [21:27] *** anjacks0n has quit IRC (anjacks0n) [21:43] godane: Got a kind of crazy idea you could try that's free (as long as you have a USB scanner). Use the scanner in a virtual machine, and and just save the scans to a shared folder between the two machines. If you don't have any Windows VMs around, grab one from modern.ie- Microsoft has a whole set there [21:46] *** kvieta has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [21:53] *** kvieta has joined #archiveteam-bs [21:57] *** ndiddy has joined #archiveteam-bs [22:18] DoomTay: set it to saved [22:18] Gotcha [22:18] We only didn't get a very very very small percentage [22:18] If it was like 30 or 20 percent, it would be partially saved [22:19] But this case is probably more ~90% [22:19] well [22:19] 90% is complete enough [22:19] 70% is about the upper limit of partial imo [22:20] Oh, I just did the math. The warrior got a whopping 99.5% [22:20] That's impressive [22:20] Of all images (and videos) we got between 99.9956% and 100% [22:21] Distributed computing at it's finest [22:21] i was puzzled by the waiting time to get work in my warrior tbh [22:21] Of all profiles we got around 97.6% [22:22] They couldn't handle a lot :( [22:22] Depending on their rate limiting tumblr and/or flickr might be projects where you can go full speed :) [22:23] when will they appear? I'm also waiting for nothing for the current google code backup, better get to urlteam [22:25] BartoCH: I can't tell you exactly when [22:25] as for the default warrior projects, I'll have a look [22:25] i finally got one work, but hell that's not much [22:26] i have like 5 waiting and one working, just like real life [22:26] :P [22:27] sooo [22:27] Who else here is from the Netherlands? [22:27] I know joepie91 and midas [22:27] not i, but there's a chance that i might be going to the sha2017 camp next summer [22:27] My company has a branch there [22:27] xmc: is the name out? [22:28] Atluxity: ? [22:28] for the camp [22:28] yes i got the implicit antecedent, but i'm not sure what you're saying [22:29] the camp I want to go to, august next year, keep changing name [22:29] is it sha2017? [22:29] https://www.sha2017.org/ [22:29] is that going to be somewhat simular to ohm2013? [22:29] i have no idea [22:30] do you know if it has been held under that name before? [22:30] it has not [22:30] yes, this looks like that camp [22:30] ok [22:30] * Atluxity rejoices [22:30] it's the one that mc.fly is head of i think [22:31] I dont think I have had the fortune of meeting mc.fly [23:04] Atluxity: yes, SHA2017 is from the same branch as OHM2013 [23:04] also fucking hell my social circles are colliding :P [23:04] again [23:04] ohhhhdear [23:05] also, yes Atluxity, come to SHA2017, and volunteer :p [23:06] Woah. [23:06] arkiver, I'd hate to beat a dead horse, but I'd like a look at the stuff the portalgraphics warrior failed to grab. [23:06] I just looked at 200 artist pages, and they are all up, with the exception of their "friends" page [23:07] Like http://www.portalgraphics.net/pg/illust/individual/?user_id=16774 or http://www.portalgraphics.net/pg/illust/individual/?user_id=2323 [23:07] *** Stiletto has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [23:09] Well, I take that back. The "profile" page ids dead too, but everything else works [23:12] joepie91: I will, as I did last time [23:13] I was receiving people and checking tickets, I was at the bar in the lounge, and I got my buddy with a pickup to drive around collecting garbage [23:14] It was fun [23:23] :D [23:23] Atluxity: I might see you at the volunteer tent then :P [23:27] Otherwise you should visit the Norwegian Village [23:28] Embassy [23:28] you know [23:32] Atluxity: well, *if* you volunteer, I will almost certainly see you at the volunteer tent, because I'm orga :P [23:32] (team volunteers) [23:33] *** Stiletto has joined #archiveteam-bs [23:58] *** Coderjoe_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [23:58] *** Coderjoe has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)