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godane |
SketchCow: medium.com 2015-04 urls are almost all donel |
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13:46
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godane |
i grab those though a proxy mostly |
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15:45
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Zandro |
https://www.reddit.com/r/FAT32peoplehate |
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Zandro |
http://www.sounddevices.com/news/sound-devices-news/sound-devices-technical-alert |
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16:47
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xmc |
dang |
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16:50
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chazchaz |
That's really nasty, and means something is really screwed up because it shouldn't even be remotely possible. |
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16:53
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xmc |
w10 seems to be getting good at Things That Shouldn't Happen |
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16:57
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anomie |
Case in point: http://www.sounddevices.com/news/sound-devices-news/sound-devices-technical-alert |
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16:57
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anomie |
"We have confirmed user reports of a serious issue with Windows 10 and removable media formatted as FAT32. Users are experiencing corruption of .wav media files by simply inserting FAT32 formatted SD or CF cards into a Windows 10 computer. Files do not need to be opened or accessed in order for them to become corrupt." |
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16:58
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xmc |
yes that was posted just an hour ago |
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16:58
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xmc |
it's what we're talking about |
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16:58
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anomie |
Oh. |
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16:59
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anomie |
Didn't realize it was that popular. |
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16:59
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anomie |
Unfortunately, fat32 is still how you need to format stuff if you need to work on virtually everything. |
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17:01
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xmc |
yep |
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17:03
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anomie |
It'd be nice if we could have a /decent/ filesystem that works on the big 3 (Windows, Mac, Linux), but I guess Silicon Valley can't even accomplish that much. |
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17:10
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17:12
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dashcloud |
anomie: udf probably would work, but as it's almost always used on DVDs, it'd be hard to say how it would work on a non-DVD medium |
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17:22
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xmc |
whatever you choose will never work on the windows xp machine at the kinko's where you need to print a thing quickly |
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17:32
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17:34
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anomie |
Then move it to a fat32 drive for that? |
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17:52
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swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaaa |
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17:57
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aaaaaaaaa |
I wonder if exFAT has the same flaw, but I don't even know what would cause something that bad |
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18:09
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anomie |
exFAT? |
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18:09
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anomie |
Like, there most be more people that use ext4 than exfat. |
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18:10
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18:11
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anomie |
Is it possible to send a TB hard drive to the internet archive (for faster bandwidth) and then have it returned to me? |
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18:11
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anomie |
Or do they need to keep it? |
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18:11
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18:12
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18:12
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swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaaa |
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18:19
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anomie |
So, is a kilobyte 1000 bytes, or 1024 bytes? |
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18:20
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
depends on who you ask |
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18:20
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aaaaaaaaa |
and the problem domain too, I suppose |
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18:21
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anomie |
>depends on who you ask |
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18:21
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anomie |
Really? |
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18:22
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anomie |
What are standards organizations for then? |
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18:22
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
making money |
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18:22
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aaaaaaaaa |
at least for the people involved |
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18:23
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anomie |
Fair point. |
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18:23
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anomie |
But I really think this ambiguity is one of the tech industries biggest fuckups. |
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18:24
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anomie |
At least, unlike metric/imperial, it's not likely to cost so much money. |
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18:24
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18:25
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aaaaaaaaa |
well, I think it is two problems, 1 is the fact that the k/G/T etc. was already used for base 10 exponents and 2 hard disk manufacturers found an easy way to save 2.4% or more off the top |
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18:26
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anomie |
The second is? |
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18:27
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
hard disk manufacturers switching to 1000 instead of 1024 |
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18:29
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anomie |
But aren't they just following the IEC's standards? How is that a problem? |
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18:32
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aaaaaaaaa |
because for a long time kilobyte meant 2e10 in base 2 and it introduced ambiguity. |
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18:33
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anomie |
Then why call it a kilobyte? |
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18:34
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
like with memory vs hard disks capacities, or why Windows says the capacity of my disk is less then the sticker, etc. |
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18:34
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aaaaaaaaa |
why call it a byte? We give things names and they mean whatever the namer wants |
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18:34
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
at least until usage takes over, I suppose. |
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18:35
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anomie |
But then why use terms from SI? |
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18:36
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anomie |
Though honestly, I don't care too much whether KB means 1024, or 1000. |
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18:36
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anomie |
It's the ambiguity cause by using "kilo" that bothers me. |
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18:36
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anomie |
*caused |
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18:37
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anomie |
Though, I remember there was also a time where MB could mean 1,024,000 bytes. |
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18:39
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aaaaaaaaa |
I think it was always 2e20, and people just couldn't be bothered to do the math |
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18:39
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anomie |
My point is, whenever I see GB, or Mbps, or kb, etc., I'd like to know exactly how many bytes are being talked about. Further context shouldn't be required. |
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18:41
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aaaaaaaaa |
Probably not, but it takes force to overcome momentum and I doubt most people care because magnitude usually matters more than exactness. |
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18:41
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anomie |
Yeah. |
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18:42
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anomie |
In any case, I'm glad that for now I can assume that most HDD vendors use the SI one, and most everyone else doesn't. |
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18:42
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anomie |
I'll still always be pedantic enough to use decimal kilobytes though. |
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18:43
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
or start calling them kibibytes, or whatever the name is |
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18:43
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anomie |
I'm really sure I like that term. |
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18:44
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anomie |
I mean, most people will just hear "kilobytes" anyways. |
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18:44
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anomie |
What do ram manufacturers use? |
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18:44
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
base 2 |
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18:45
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anomie |
All right. |
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18:46
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
usually almost anything measured in "bytes" is base 2, except hard disks, anything else is usually base 10 |
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18:46
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anomie |
In any case, I'll always dream of a day when an average Windows user plugs in a 1TB HDD, that windows will tell him it's 1TB, rather than 931.3226GB. |
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18:46
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|
wyatt8740 |
and OS X and anything in linux that uses glib use base 10 because they're dumb |
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18:46
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anomie |
s/dump/correct |
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18:46
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anomie |
*dumb |
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18:46
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wyatt8740 |
I had to recompile my file manager in linux with some tweaks to make it correct in base 2 |
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18:47
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anomie |
… |
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18:47
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anomie |
wyatt8740: Can we stop before the flamewar happens? |
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18:47
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
oh yeah. I've had things change sizes on me before when partitioning vs formatting |
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18:47
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wyatt8740 |
I didnt realize anyone actually used the 'drivemaker's kilobyte' |
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18:48
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wyatt8740 |
https://xkcd.com/394/ |
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18:48
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anomie |
wyatt8740: The IEC does, the IEEE does. |
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18:48
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anomie |
It's an SI unit. |
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18:48
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|
wyatt8740 |
IEC created a standard for base 2 |
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18:48
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anomie |
wyatt8740: Wut? http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html |
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18:48
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
right, but I believe the disk makers switched first and the IEC had to clean up the mess or something like that |
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18:49
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anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: Can you show me? That sounds really interesting. |
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18:49
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|
wyatt8740 |
no, drivemakers abuse the SI standard because it's more bytes of storage on the label and less that computers actually see |
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18:49
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anomie |
Regardless, they were simply using SI prefixes correctly. |
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18:49
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wyatt8740 |
even OS X uses base 2 for all the CLI programs because that's the way it's always been done |
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18:50
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anomie |
wyatt8740: It's retarded though. |
|
18:50
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|
wyatt8740 |
not denying that SI did make the standard, just saying SI was wrong to do so IMO :p |
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18:51
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anomie |
Being the way it was done first doesn't make it right. |
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18:51
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anomie |
"Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body. " |
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18:52
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
either way, all the old dogs and greybeards will die off eventually and the great SI/IEC utopia will not be stopped. |
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18:52
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anomie |
I hope so. |
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18:52
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wyatt8740 |
1000/8 = 125. 125/8 = 15.625. 15.625 / 8 = 1.953125. Where in base 2, 1024/8=128. 128/8 = 16. 16/8 = 2. |
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18:52
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wyatt8740 |
IMO whole numbers make more sense :p |
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18:52
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anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: I think you might be underestimating the influence of the things people already use. |
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18:53
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18:53
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anomie |
As long as windows doesn't change, I don't think very much else will. |
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18:53
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wyatt8740 |
people already use windows (most of them, not me personally) |
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18:54
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|
wyatt8740 |
it'd be better if windows would just shove a lowercase 'i' between K and B. |
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18:54
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wyatt8740 |
:p |
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18:54
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anomie |
Still, I think windows could at least start using KiB, MiB, GiB, etc. |
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18:54
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anomie |
wyatt8740: Yes, I agree. |
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18:54
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anomie |
I don't care which one is used more, as much as I wish they could be distinct. |
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18:55
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wyatt8740 |
if computers did calculations in base 10 I wouldn't mind either :p |
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18:55
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|
wyatt8740 |
but they don't |
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18:56
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anomie |
Don't do calculations in base 10 then. |
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18:58
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anomie |
KiB will always remain useful at a lower level, beyond the reach of common abstractions. |
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18:58
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
who doesn't know that .1 + .1 + .1 != .3 |
|
18:58
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anomie |
Just a step above where engineers once spoke of "bauds". |
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18:58
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
totally obvious |
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18:59
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
baud actually measures something different |
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18:59
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anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: Actually… lemme try something. |
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18:59
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|
anomie |
CL-USER> (+ 0.1 0.1 0.1) | A)) |
|
18:59
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|
anomie |
0.3 |
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19:00
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|
anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: Apparenlty Common Lisp doesn't. ;) |
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19:00
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|
anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: Do you have any more floating point fuckery I could try? |
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19:02
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
they probably round or the actually equality measure might be false or various behind the scenes things might be happening. |
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19:03
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anomie |
aaaaaaaaa: Should I try using smaller amounts? |
|
19:03
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
I don't remember any off hand, but a lot of operations give odd results, especially if you store an intermediate variable. |
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19:04
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anomie |
Here's one. |
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19:04
🔗
|
anomie |
CL-USER> (+ 0.0001 0.0001 0.0001) |
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19:04
🔗
|
anomie |
2.9999999e-4 |
|
19:10
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
http://www.lahey.com/float.htm |
|
19:11
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
Those examples are in fortran, but you'd probably get the gist. |
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19:12
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anomie |
I just realized some people still use fortran. |
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19:12
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anomie |
Which isn't a bad thing, I guess. Fortran is *still* amazingly well optimized. |
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19:41
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wyatt8740 |
anomie: I have a RS232 terminal, I am perfectly aware what bauds are :p |
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19:41
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wyatt8740 |
also, I do calculations in base 10. But I dont want my computer lying to me about how big files are |
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19:43
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wyatt8740 |
(though the flyback transformer in my terminal died last week so it's currently out of commission) |
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20:09
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20:49
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20:55
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anomie |
wyatt8740: I… I'm not old enough. Can you explain please? |
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20:57
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21:11
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wyatt8740 |
anomie: baud? |
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21:12
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wyatt8740 |
I'm 18 btw |
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21:12
🔗
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wyatt8740 |
so I'm not really old enough either. |
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21:12
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wyatt8740 |
in RS232 baud is the number of bytes that can be sent per second |
|
21:12
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|
wyatt8740 |
*characters |
|
21:12
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wyatt8740 |
so that usually equates to bytes but not always (some terminals used 7 bits per character I think) |
|
21:13
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wyatt8740 |
whoops |
|
21:13
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wyatt8740 |
im wrong |
|
21:13
🔗
|
wyatt8740 |
it's bits per second |
|
21:14
🔗
|
wyatt8740 |
so 19200 baud means you can send up to 19200 bits per second (or 2400 bytes, or 2.34 KiB/2.4KB) |
|
21:15
🔗
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wyatt8740 |
19200 baud is the maximum speed of my terminal |
|
21:15
🔗
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wyatt8740 |
and it goes all the way down to 150 baud |
|
21:15
🔗
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wyatt8740 |
at lower speeds like that or even 1200 baud you can literally see lines being drawn when you use a ncurses program |
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21:28
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anomie |
Yeah. |
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21:29
🔗
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anomie |
1200 baud is when you drop vim/emacs and start using ED. |
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21:29
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anomie |
But what is the flyback transformer? |
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21:29
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anomie |
What is RS232? |
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21:34
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|
aaaaaaaaa |
Try wikipedia. But in all seriousness, flyback transformers are common in CRTs and RS-232 is a standard for serial communication. |
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21:35
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pikhq |
RS232 is not merely common but damned near ubiquitous even today. |
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21:35
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pikhq |
Admittedly you're not likely to be exposed to it as an end user unless you're doing device development of some form. |
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21:35
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aaaaaaaaa |
RS-232 was used for almost everything I can think of, except printers, before USB took over on PCs |
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21:36
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pikhq |
(the major use case for it these days is to get a console on various devices. Say, tinkering with the firmware on your TV.) |
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21:37
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anomie |
Is it the original serialbus? |
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21:37
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aaaaaaaaa |
yeah, or industry stuff |
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pikhq |
anomie: Yep. |
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anomie |
Ah. |
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21:37
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pikhq |
Though it's not a bus. |
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21:37
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anomie |
Doesn't it have 9 pins, if I remember right? |
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21:37
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anomie |
Five on top, four on the bottom? |
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Baljem |
although technically that's just async serial, commonly called UART - RS232 specifies signalling levels that are pretty antiquated (nominally +/- 12V) and you won't find real RS232 on things like embedded debug ports |
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21:38
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pikhq |
RS-232 specifies a 25 pin connector, but most stuff uses a 9 pin connector or something. |
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pikhq |
Right, yeah, you'd need extra circuitry to get real RS-232 out of debug ports. |
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Baljem |
the 9-pin variant was an IBM attempt to save money. RS232 itself defined a 25-pin pinout, including a secondary circuit and additional handshaking |
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anomie |
Wow… |
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Baljem |
(there's also a difference between 'baud' and 'bits per second', which is something like symbols vs. bits - the baud rate is the number of times the signal can change state per second, but each state might convey multiple bits - although quite where that lies on the common-usage vs. official-usage vs. pedantic-crap spectrum I'm not sure) |
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pikhq |
RS-232 is fairly nice for stuff because it's relatively simple to support (and something that pretty much anyone can get access to) |
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SketchCow |
Wow, lot of questions. |
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joepie91 |
PotcFdk: pong |
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23:15
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PotcFdk |
ding dong |
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joepie91 |
PotcFdk: so yeah, have a go with that :P |
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PotcFdk |
I will, thanks for your help! |
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PotcFdk |
joepie91: would you mind if I pinged you back in case I run into anything bad |
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joepie91 |
PotcFdk: go ahead, but no guarantee on response time :P |
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joepie91 |
(I generally respond faster in #Node.js anyway) |
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swebb sets mode: +o aaaaaaaa_ |
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aaaaaaaa_ is now known as aaaaaaaaa |
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SketchCow |
whut |