[00:20] *** VADemon has quit IRC (left4dead) [00:35] *** bwn_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [00:42] *** bwn has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [01:17] i'm at 540k items now [01:20] cause a bible app was downloaded 200 Million times i'm start to archive life.church videos [01:20] *** SN4T14 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [01:28] *** SN4T14 has joined #archiveteam-bs [01:47] *** JesseW has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:14] *** bwn_ has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [02:14] *** bwn has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:22] *** schbirid2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:24] *** schbirid has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [02:24] SketchCow: i hope there is more issue of macworld from 1999 [02:24] i only see 4 so far [02:35] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:44] *** HCross has quit IRC (Max SendQ exceeded) [02:44] *** Fusl has quit IRC (Max SendQ exceeded) [02:44] *** HCross has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:45] vitzli: Oh, nice! [02:45] *** Fusl has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:47] *** _desu___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [02:50] *** _desu___ has joined #archiveteam-bs [02:52] *** xmc has quit IRC (Quit: brb) [03:12] *** bwn has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [03:24] *** xmc has joined #archiveteam-bs [03:24] *** swebb sets mode: +o xmc [03:36] *** JetBalsa has quit IRC (Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -) [05:06] Macworld is more limited. [05:06] 17:00 < JetBalsa> @textfiles is a fucking amazing dude FYI [05:06] Fuck that guy [05:07] he makes it about himself [05:08] *** aaaaaaaaa has quit IRC (Leaving) [05:16] *** ndiddy has joined #archiveteam-bs [05:24] SketchCow: i see why [05:25] Yeah [05:25] I'm using some this and that resources. [05:25] it came from vintageapple.org people [05:25] But this is helping me a lot, since I have all this in my storage container. [05:25] true [05:26] at least with macwould can give away the magazines from before 1996 [05:26] and most of macaddict was scaned [05:27] only 2006 and 2007 was not with that one [05:27] SketchCow: so where are you going to get wired magazines from? [05:35] looks like there are some fun screw ups with the macworld file names [05:35] like MacWorld 9102 February 1992.pdf [05:38] anyways going to bed [05:48] *** Sk1d has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [05:57] *** Sk1d has joined #archiveteam-bs [06:39] The #urlteam project scraping the dropbox shortener is pretty silly -- we've found 21 results in over 40 *million* checks... [06:40] but it keeps clicking over, so why not... [06:40] we've had nearly 3 *billion* wrong guesses for bitly shorturls [06:47] pft [06:47] HTTP requests are free [06:47] :p [06:51] not "free" -- but literally "too cheap to meter" in many (but not all) contexts... [06:52] free to us :D [06:52] seriously though [06:52] I have very little sympathy for URL shorteners [06:52] if they don't want us scraping their thing by bruteforce, there's a very simple solution for that [06:52] a dump of their links [06:52] if they choose not to do that, well.. [06:53] *** kniffy has quit IRC (Excess Flood) [06:53] No argument from me. [06:53] I found one that claimed to have a dump, but when I downloaded it, it was garbage. :-/ [06:54] * joepie91 has been thinking about making "mirror to the Internet Archive" a simpler thing for people to implement [06:54] would be nice to encourage devs to just mirror public content straight to IA [06:54] saves a whole archival roundtrip [06:56] hm. say more? [06:56] which sorts of public content? [06:57] JesseW: for example, for PDFy, every public upload is automatically and instantly uploaded to IA [06:57] so even if PDFy went down all of a sudden, there'd be a full public copy of all public content [06:57] down to the most recent document uploaded [06:57] it's referenced from the document page, too [06:57] JesseW: eg. https://pdf.yt/d/6x2W9mULACzD8LWh [06:58] see the "Mirror" button [06:58] it's all fully automated [06:59] ah, and you'd like to make that a drop-in solution, so other site developers could do the same? [07:01] *** kniffy has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:01] *** kniffy has quit IRC (Excess Flood) [07:02] *** kniffy has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:20] *** kyan has quit IRC (hub.efnet.us irc.Prison.NET) [07:20] *** logan has quit IRC (hub.efnet.us irc.Prison.NET) [07:27] JesseW: basically, yeah [07:27] JesseW: there are only really three reasons why people wouldn't [07:27] 1) costs too much time/effort. not worth it [07:27] 2) "but all the content must be ephemeral!" [07:27] 3) business interests [07:27] I hope to at least remove the first reason :P [07:27] *** chfoo has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 310 seconds) [07:28] 4) disliking/distrusting IA in particular [07:29] JesseW: can't say that I've ever seen that without reason 2 [07:29] *** kyan has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:29] *** logan has joined #archiveteam-bs [07:32] joepie91: hm -- really, you haven't come across any of the jealous archivists out there, who want their content to stay around, but explicitly dont' want IA's help (or even passive involvement) in such preservation? I don't remember an example offhand, but I (vaguely) remember seeing instances of such. [07:34] JesseW, I've seen those -_- [07:34] Also this is scary http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/12/12/feds-warn-bogus-batch-syrian-passports-amid-report-isis-can-print-them/ [07:35] kyan: first, consider the source. [07:35] Source? I met them here [07:36] no, I meant the foxnews link [07:36] oh [07:36] I generally like Fox's reporting [07:36] *** BlueMaxim has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [07:36] (the people in the comments are jackasses, but whatever) [07:36] you know what else is just as scary [07:36] fake driver licenses [07:36] I generally read Fox and Al Jazeera America [07:37] second, I'm pretty certain there are quite a few other things checked when admitting someone to the country besides a single document [07:37] I guess, but it's still alarming. [07:37] in any case, I'm not inclined to get into a discussion on the subject here. [07:37] It shows a level of technological ability and sophistication that is scary [07:37] JesseW: The reason Syrian passports are interesting is because of Syrian refugees being accepted rather easily. [07:38] you know what else shows a level of technological ability and sophistication that is scary [07:38] pikhq: as I understand (and I rather throughly have NOT been following the story) Syrian refugees are *not* being accepted rather easily -- in fact, quite the reverse. [07:38] Facebook usage [07:39] * JesseW agrees with yipdw [07:39] I can use Facebook (somewhat), but I can't print passports -_- [07:39] the difference is that shit gets planned on there while that Fox News report is fearmongering [07:39] also SMS shows a similar scary level of technological sophistication [07:40] terorists plan things on Facebook? Doesn't that make it easy to monitor? [07:40] we would all think so [07:40] Anyway conversations about politics almost always deteriorate :3 [07:40] It's not as though passport faking is some sort of *new* phenomenon, anyways. [07:40] * JesseW agrees with pikhq [07:42] Is it a problem? Sure. News? Okay. Some sort of major thing to be terrified of? Eh. [07:42] JesseW: the only place where I've seen "archivists" and "developers" overlap, is IA/ArchiveTeam :P [07:43] joepie91: you haven't gotten out much, then. :-) [07:43] kyan: I think, really, that if you want to plan an attack operation, you are probably better off on something in-the-clear like Facebook *provided* that you can maintain e.g. compartmentalization of your attack identity and your real-world identity [07:43] IA has their fingers in a lot of pies, but hardly all of them. [07:43] and that you have a good, pre-arranged code with your co-conspirators [07:44] using something like Telegram or Signal is just too fucking obvious [07:44] yipdw: Eh, anyway I *don't* want to plan an attack... [07:44] "you" not meaning you specifcally [07:44] I figured. I was joking :P [07:44] I guess it wasn't that funny... [07:44] * kyan hides in the corner [07:44] anyway compartmentalizing your life is really really hard so [07:47] ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOTE [07:47] docker run has some strangely strict command-line order [07:47] you have to do docker run OPTIONS IMAGE COMMAND; if you reverse IMAGE and OPTIONS the error is really strange [07:47] joepie91: example of a non-IA (although friendly, AFAIK) group: "Digital Preservation Outreach and Education Program" at the Library of Congress [07:48] yipdw: what's the error? [07:48] also -- arghgghh, that seems really frustrating [07:48] JesseW: it spits out stuff like "--name: executable not found in $PATH" [07:48] * JesseW dammit, getopt is HOW many decades old at this point? [07:48] which makes sense if you consider the strict arg order but is really baffling otherwise [07:49] or I should say "which makes sense if you are a computer" [07:59] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [08:20] JesseW: *nix stuff seems to be considered feature-complete on release, more often than not... [08:20] (even when it's anything but) [08:22] joepie91: huh? [08:25] JesseW: as in, built once, and now it's a part of everything and nobody ever rethinks the design [08:25] which makes "how long has it been around for" a bit of a moot point, as the design iteration is missing ;) [08:27] ah. [08:28] hm -- I'm not sure if that's true. There certainly are various old tools whose interfaces haven't changed in a long time (although most of them were re-written (and had additional/changed interfaces) at least once by the GNU project) [08:29] but there are plenty of tools that change their interfaces /too/ often, also [08:29] changing interfaces a lot isn't a problem, if versioned appropriately. [08:30] unfortunately that is more or less impossible when you have a single global, flat dependency namespace ;) [08:30] and my comment about getopt was more -- why didn't docker use one of the flexible argument parsing libraries, rather than requiring such an inflexible positional design [08:30] global, flat dependency database => command-line ? [08:31] JesseW: no, as in, the way dependencies work on *nix systems. [08:31] ah [08:31] you generally have exactly one version of one thing installed [08:31] and everything better work with it [08:31] doing otherwise is a royal pain in the ass [08:31] er -- not with shared libraries; [08:31] or python versions (virtualenv) [08:32] virtualenv is a massive hack, and doesn't solve the problem either. [08:32] shared libraries have this problem too. [08:32] virtualenv just isolates the dependencies for a particular project - it does not handle the case where two dependencies of said project require different versions of a given sub-dependency [08:32] clarify? I know there are *problems* with installing multiple versions, but I also know there *is* support for it... [08:33] (at the shared library level) [08:33] because you still have a flat, 'global' dependency namespace, except it isolates it for that application and pretends that it's the global namespace [08:33] JesseW: you do not have a good way to express API changes. you can have shared library versions, but no way to reliably distinguish between breaking and non-breaking API changes [08:34] ah, so by non-flat/global you mean the ability for A -> B, C ; B -> Dv1 ; C -> Dv2 ? [08:34] yes. [08:34] nested dependencies, in some way. not necessarily nested on the filesystem [08:34] npm2 nests on the filesystem, npm3 flattens where possible, Nix has a flat store (like Git) but with a nested dependency representation based on hashes [08:34] *** bwn has joined #archiveteam-bs [08:35] all three are non-flat dependency systems [08:35] I do understand that isn't available with shared libraries -- but I'm pretty sure it *is* available with programs that call each other. [08:35] there exists no versioning on a system-wide level, only in the packaging system [08:35] and then you end up in version conflict hell real quick [08:35] hm [08:36] because now Totem from the openSUSE repo requires this version of gstreamer [08:36] but VLC from the VideoLAN repo requires another [08:36] and the two are not compatible [08:36] and now add a third video player from Packman, and welcome to hell [08:36] because Videolan, openSUSE and Packman all ship their own version of gstreamer [08:36] that works for THEIR version [08:37] but either doesn't work with the others according to deps, or the deps say that it does but there are API incompatibilities because of vendor patches [08:37] wait, that isn't supported by the fact that the three versions have different version names in the shared libraries? [08:37] no. because they may all be developing in a different direction, and as I said before, there's no good way to distinguish breaking from non-breaking API changes [08:38] you can either increment the .so version number for every change, breaking or not, and now you can't reasonably dedupe dependencies [08:38] "good way to distinguish breaking from non-breaking API changes" -- isn't that the halting problem? [08:38] or you can only increment it for breaking changes, in which case you run the risk of installing an older version to satisfy two packages at the same time [08:38] but it doesn't work with one of them [08:38] because every non-breaking API change is a breaking change when looking at it backwards [08:39] there's no way to say "we know it'll work from this version up to this version" in .so versions [08:39] JesseW: no [08:39] API changes are defined by the publisher of software [08:39] this is what eg. semver is for [08:39] it's a way to express such changes in the versioning [08:39] so that you can consistently define dependencies, and tolerate non-breaking API changes, without running into the aforementioned issu [08:39] issue* [08:40] hm [08:40] JesseW: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/9b9dbd8c9ac3b55a65b2#semantic-versioning for a tl;dr [08:40] (it's also used outside of NPM) [08:40] (NPM is just the only package ecosystem I've seen where it's almost consistently applied, so it's a great example case) [08:41] hm [08:41] Note there’s two things about API’s that can “break”, the actual interface (function signature, not the halting problem) or behavior (halting problem). [08:42] basically, semver gives you the maximum possible deduplication without giving up API stability guarantees. [08:42] PurpleSym: yeah, just talking about documented interface here. [08:42] documentation is authorative; if the code doesn't behave as documented, that's a bug and should be released as patch release [08:42] to bring the actual behaviour in line with the documentation. [08:44] * JesseW needs to go to sleep now. Thanks for the discussion, though -- it was informative; I'll need to read/think about it more. [08:45] JesseW: last point: semver makes it effectively free to maintain two or more separate, API-incompatible branches [08:45] which allows for better design iteration without necessarily breaking backwards compat [08:45] which means better software [09:01] (I didn't actually go to sleep) -- can you expand on how one would maintain 2 (only 2, or unlimited?) API-incompatible branches with semvar? [09:04] (I'll read the logs) [09:06] JesseW: unlimited. major version bump means backwards-incompatible API change(s), so you can eg. just maintain 1.x and 2.x and 3.x separately [09:06] and release for each [09:06] and semver-capable things will automatically do the right thing [09:06] because you generally lock to a major version with a specific minimum [09:06] (the specific minimum solves the "API additions are breaking when looking at it backwards" problem) [09:07] so one application require libfoobar ^1.1.0 and another can require ^2.0.3 and yet another can require ^2.4.1 [09:07] and you're going to end up with the latest 1.x.x and the latest 2.x.x installed - but the 1.x.x will be guaranteed to be *at least* 1.1.0, and the 2.x.x will be guaranteed to be *at least* 2.4.1 [09:08] isn't that already done, by just encoding the major version into the name, rather than the version? So you have python2 and python3 ... [09:08] ? [09:08] JesseW: very hackily. it's not standard, and now you end up in invocation hell for that reason [09:08] do I run python2? python3? what if it supports both? what if the user is using a distro that only has `python` and `python3`? [09:08] do I need to call python2? but that will break on that distro. but if I call `python` then it might run 3 on some systems [09:08] and so on, and so on [09:09] you also still don't have a clear guarantee on API compatibility, meaning that you can't be certain that a later Python 3.x version will work with code written for earlier Python 3.x [09:09] (there have been some issues around this with python2) [09:10] JesseW: the fact that you need to encode versions into the package names because the versioning/dependency system isn't sufficient for providing API guarantees, is a pretty good sign that it's broken [09:10] heh. ok, that makes sense [09:10] just like the need for environment variable hacks like virtualenv shows that Python's dependency model is broken :P [09:11] it's all workarounds upon workarounds upon workarounds, because there is no solid, standardized, workable base system with the guarantees you need [09:11] I mean, Nix is a giant hack too [09:11] for that reason [09:12] an elegant hack, but a hack nevertheless [09:13] well, the guarantees are cultural, not technical [09:14] bit of both. [09:14] There are a few technical improvements that semvar and npm do, but they seem pretty minor -- the big benefit is the degree to which the *cultural* effort is put forward. [09:14] the guarantees are not technically enforced, but they serve a technical purpose and have technical consequences [09:15] agreed [09:15] and perhaps most importantly, it makes it much easier to say "hey, this patch violates your semver guarantees, that's a bug." [09:15] it sidesteps the entire discussion about backwards compatibility :P [09:15] you can still decide not to care about backwards compatibility, if you want [09:16] and release a new major version every week [09:16] heh [09:16] but it will be clear to users of your project that that is the case [09:23] *** asdf has joined #archiveteam-bs [09:23] *** JesseW has quit IRC (Leaving.) [09:28] *** acridAxid has quit IRC (Quit: marauder) [09:29] *** acridAxid has joined #archiveteam-bs [10:17] *** remsen has quit IRC (Leaving) [10:17] *** remsen has joined #archiveteam-bs [10:50] *** vitzli has joined #archiveteam-bs [10:50] Blockchain upload at 67% [11:48] *** VADemon has joined #archiveteam-bs [14:03] *** remsen2 has joined #archiveteam-bs [14:05] *** remsen has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [14:21] *** altlabel has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 506 seconds) [14:24] *** fie has joined #archiveteam-bs [14:26] *** xmc has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [15:01] *** foobar_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:01] *** foobar_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) [15:42] *** kniffy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [15:50] *** DopefishJ has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:50] *** swebb sets mode: +o DopefishJ [15:50] *** Start_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [15:50] *** Start has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [15:51] *** godane has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) [15:51] *** DFJustin has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [16:20] *** kniffy_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:22] *** kniffy_ is now known as kniffy [16:31] *** kniffy has quit IRC (Quit: :^)) [16:33] *** kniffy has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:33] *** chfoo has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:45] *** SN4T14_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:46] *** SN4T14 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [16:47] *** sep332 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [16:49] *** altlabel has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:50] *** vitzli has quit IRC (Leaving) [16:54] *** kyan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [16:56] *** godane has joined #archiveteam-bs [16:59] *** JesseW has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:09] *** JetBalsa has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:17] well this is an interesting Ubuntu bug [17:17] if you're on 14.04 LTS and do do-release-upgrade -d right now, you will not be prompted to update to 15.10 [17:18] *** antomati_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:18] *** swebb sets mode: +o antomati_ [17:18] you will be given 16.04 LTS [17:18] *** RichardG_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:18] *** Fletcher has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:18] there is probably a way to justify this as "not a bug", but there is also AFAICT no way to go from LTS to latest stable non-LTS using update-manager [17:18] *** Famicoman has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:18] *** afics has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:18] *** antomatic has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:18] *** no2pencil has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:19] aside from s/trusty/wily/g in /etc/apt, I guess, but update-manager is supposed to, like, do this for me [17:19] *** no2pencil has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:19] *** Stiletto has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:19] *** Stiletto has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:20] *** Apathy has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:22] *** brayden_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:22] *** vtyl has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:23] *** wp494 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [17:23] *** mistym has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 606 seconds) [17:23] *** wp494 has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:23] er, don't most upgrade systems upgrade you to the most highest available version, not the next one? Or is there an expectation that distribution upgrades always go one release at a time? [17:23] yipdw: [17:23] *** mistym has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:24] *** Start_ is now known as Start [17:24] *** RichardG has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 606 seconds) [17:24] JesseW: yes but 16.04 LTS is time traveling [17:25] it isn't out yet, or it just has a funny name...? [17:25] it isn't out yet [17:25] it's 16.04 LTS because it is scheduled for April 2016 [17:25] anyway I just did the s/trusty/wily/g thing because that seems to be the only way to do it [17:25] Hm. So it's upgrading you to something that isn't available? [17:25] Strange. [17:25] it's available, but is horribly unstable [17:25] likely [17:25] Ha [17:26] *** lytv has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 606 seconds) [17:27] I mean, ok, it makes sense -- "do-release-upgrade -d" means "upgrade to latest devel", and if you're on LTS releases it works [17:27] but do-release-upgrade -d, if you're on not-LTS, boots you to the next stable [17:27] whatever [17:28] *** Fletcher has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:28] I realize this is squarely in the It Works If You Think Like Me category of "bugs" [17:32] *** RichardG has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:38] *** wp494 has quit IRC (hub.se efnet.portlane.se) [17:38] *** RichardG_ has quit IRC (hub.se efnet.portlane.se) [17:38] *** Sk1d has quit IRC (hub.se efnet.portlane.se) [17:38] *** dashcloud has quit IRC (hub.se efnet.portlane.se) [17:38] *** ParkerR has quit IRC (hub.se efnet.portlane.se) [17:47] *** Apathy has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:47] *** parker_ has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:47] *** afics has joined #archiveteam-bs [17:49] *** JesseW has quit IRC (Leaving.) 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The games and their modding communities have helped to build the CRYENGINE development community as we know it today, but ... we feel that they no longer fit in with our mission statement for the website and our engine. So please make sure to dow [21:48] Yeah, you folks built us up -- but FUCK YOU and your work. BURN IT ALL. [22:42] Oh man, those moments where you are wrestling with something for hours only to realize you are using the wrong tools. [22:43] and then get it in 15 minutes. [22:43] aaaaaaaaa: share the example? [22:45] I've been trying to get a regular expression to chop up a URI the way I want. Only to realize that I can use string methods and conditionals. [22:45] hahahah. ah, the regex trap [22:45] sympathy [22:45] I only really needed them to get everything up to the port number. 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