#archiveteam-ot 2020-01-17,Fri

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06:09 🔗 atphoenix aaaannnd...EFNet drops for 8 minutes and finally comes back (again)
06:10 🔗 Raccoon never noticed.
06:10 🔗 Raccoon give efnet.portlane.se a try
06:14 🔗 atphoenix I was last on irc.choopa.net
06:37 🔗 marked1 feels like musical chairs
06:38 🔗 atphoenix pretty much
06:39 🔗 Raccoon efnet is definitely not the european union. every server is a sovereign nation unto itself, sharing only namespace
06:40 🔗 Raccoon on a good day, they continue sharing the same namespace instead of sharing somebody else's namespace, or noone else's.
06:40 🔗 atphoenix in that case it is a bunch of squabbling nations
06:41 🔗 Raccoon like most autocratic societies, they're not great at maintaining infrastructure
06:41 🔗 atphoenix sometimes deciding they don't want to talk to each other (netsplits)
06:41 🔗 Raccoon or communications :)
06:41 🔗 nicolas17 I hope IRC servers can detect loops
06:41 🔗 Raccoon what kinda loops
06:43 🔗 atphoenix Racooon, is your statement transitive? as the US is not great at maintaining infrastructure maybe it is autocratic?
06:44 🔗 Raccoon atphoenix: i wouldn't say the US isn't great at maintaining infrastructure
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06:44 🔗 Raccoon we do have pretty damn high standards you know
06:44 🔗 atphoenix roads and bridges...roads and bridges...
06:44 🔗 Raccoon higher than any other place in the world?
06:44 🔗 Raccoon yes. highest standards for roads and for bridges
06:44 🔗 Raccoon we write the standards
06:45 🔗 nicolas17 Raccoon: IRC servers connect to each other forming a spanning tree
06:45 🔗 nicolas17 bad things would happen if there's a routing loop there, such that it's not a tree anymore
06:45 🔗 Raccoon oh yeah. servers won't allow someone to connect that's already connected
06:45 🔗 Raccoon all servers are always aware of the entire tree
06:46 🔗 marked1 I'm recommending a ring topology
06:46 🔗 marked1 or something self healing
06:46 🔗 Raccoon if a server were to try looping around, i guess it could just be viewed as spoofing messages.
06:47 🔗 atphoenix doesn't need a full ring, just at least several connections to other nodes
06:47 🔗 Raccoon a properly written ircd would reject messages from a server when it knows for sure the source didn't come from beyond that server, but from a different pathway
06:47 🔗 atphoenix mesh
06:47 🔗 Raccoon ie, my server knows that you are coming from node C and not from nodes A B or D
06:47 🔗 Raccoon so, it should reject any messages from you coming from A
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06:49 🔗 atphoenix from what I read about netsplits...they can lead to trouble when the split halfs reconnect, like people taking OP powers where there normally should not
06:50 🔗 Raccoon that's why TS (timestamps) were added, and the "nick/channel not available" errors
06:50 🔗 Raccoon hasn't really been done since 2003 and earlier
06:51 🔗 atphoenix on infra: yes, US does write standards, but to maintain infrastructure, it needs investing/rebuilding at the rate it wears out. Assuming roads have 50 years lives, that means 2% of roads need rebuilding annually...which is not happening. If it isn't happening, then we're eating our seedcorn and living off past infra investment.
06:52 🔗 Raccoon i see road construction vehicles wherever there are commuters
06:52 🔗 Raccoon if you live in one of the top 500 cities, you cannot commute to work without passing a road crew
06:53 🔗 atphoenix that is true; doesn't mean the investment matches the aggregate wear down rate
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06:53 🔗 Raccoon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
06:54 🔗 Raccoon Can't be any worse than Iran
07:01 🔗 atphoenix That's not on my list of places I'd want to live. Nor most places in Central Asia, nor India, nor China. However, they do have subways/mass transit in their major cities, and living without a car is possible.
07:07 🔗 Raccoon America's major cities have pretty advanced mass transit, to the scale of many or most European cities. It's just that America also has suburbs and country and back-country, where other nations often do not.
08:12 🔗 marked1 I can't think of any transit in the US I'd call advanced, besides hyperloop which doesn't really exist
08:16 🔗 Raccoon most of the east coast is pretty well connected, isn't it
08:18 🔗 Raccoon https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/World_railway_network.png
08:22 🔗 marked1 the US fastest train is Amtrak Acela, connects DC/NewYork/Boston. All the bids for that came from european train companies
08:24 🔗 marked1 that map must be showing both slow trains and high speed trains together.
08:24 🔗 Raccoon I guess it's hard upgrading to new trains when you have the first trains
08:25 🔗 Raccoon just like how Europe started using DSL and Fiber that America invented, before Americans ever got it
08:25 🔗 Raccoon since we had functional first systems already in place that hadn't been paid off
08:25 🔗 marked1 https://i.redd.it/kx9clca22rk21.png
08:27 🔗 Raccoon also helps that well-to-do business people ride the train in europe, but own their own cars in america. mainly only poor people ride the train in the us, and can't afford to upgrade the systems they use.
08:29 🔗 Raccoon if rich people took the train, they could charge more for tickets, and buy new trains
08:38 🔗 atphoenix obviously at-ot needs on at-ot-ot
08:38 🔗 atphoenix an*
08:41 🔗 marked1 idk, once you're ot, does it matter how ot you get?
08:47 🔗 atphoenix maybe? the topic says 'Wanna bikeshed about the topic?' what's the topic? maybe this is like a recursive acronym
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08:49 🔗 OrIdow6 Presenting, "A Million Random Digits With 100,000 Normal Deviates"
08:51 🔗 OrIdow6 10097 32533 76520 13586 34673 54876 80959 09117 39292 74945
08:51 🔗 OrIdow6 etc.
08:52 🔗 OrIdow6 (That is to say, there is certainly some standard for what goes into this channel, even though that doesn't prove that it is of great height.)
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08:58 🔗 marked1 That's one of my favorite books. The amazon reviews are pretty good too
09:03 🔗 atphoenix I imagine that book works about as well as counting sheep. Maybe better.
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12:27 🔗 JAA "it's hard upgrading to new trains when you have the first trains" The US doesn't have the first trains. Those were in the UK mostly. Well, at least what we'd call a "train" nowadays. Many countries in Western and Central Europe started building railway networks in the 1830s or so, similar to the US. The real issue isn't that; it's that the network in the US was basically not maintained or developed
12:27 🔗 JAA further for the last half a century or more. But surely the car and aviation industry lobbyists had nothing to do with that...
12:28 🔗 JAA Raccoon: ^
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15:44 🔗 Raccoon JAA: fair. i mean, our car lobby did tear up all the trams. but then when you see photos of bendy twisty third-world-lookin rail road tracks, it's not in the U.S. either.
15:45 🔗 Raccoon so we must do something right at least in keeping them going straight
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17:35 🔗 JAA Raccoon: Oh sure, the rails themselves might be straight, but the entire technology is horribly outdated.
17:38 🔗 marked1 I've been meaning to look more into. In europe, petrol/gasoline is much more expensive which I assume is taxation that goes into other transportation options
17:38 🔗 atphoenix it takes a lot more than straight rails to run Shinkansen or TGV trainsets
17:38 🔗 marked1 in the use, the gasoline tax is called road tax, so I assume it's mostly going into road upkeep
17:40 🔗 atphoenix US fuel taxes go into a general fund, which then in turn is used to pay for transportation infra, but fuel taxes are fixed $/gallon amounts and not inflation-indexed
17:40 🔗 atphoenix so over decades they are effectively falling
17:40 🔗 JAA US also has huge subsidies for fossil fuels. That's the main reason (as far as I know) why gasoline is so cheap there.
17:41 🔗 atphoenix there are definitely quite a few fossil fuel exemptions/deductions/credits in the tax codes here
17:44 🔗 atphoenix the renewable energy groups would be happy to see *all* subsidies/exemptions/credits go away. None for renewable energy and none for fossil fuels, is fine with them.
17:46 🔗 JAA Yup
17:48 🔗 marked1 https://taxfoundation.org/oecd-gas-tax/ | https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-europe-2019/
17:48 🔗 JAA Better yet would be including the externalised costs in the prices.
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17:53 🔗 marked1 Gasoline (1 gallon) NYC $2.98 (2.28 £) London UK $6.42 (4.91 £)
17:56 🔗 marked1 convert €0.65/L (euros per liter) to US dollars per gallon = $2.748/gal
17:59 🔗 marked1 Do electric cars get taxed differently in Europe?
18:04 🔗 JAA Every country's different.
18:12 🔗 atphoenix every state is different too
18:13 🔗 atphoenix some have incentives, some have penalty fees, some have both
18:13 🔗 atphoenix and some have neither
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