[00:37] *** Raccoon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 360 seconds) [00:47] *** Raccoon has joined #archiveteam-ot [01:05] *** dxrt_ has quit IRC (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) [01:07] *** dxrt_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [01:07] *** dxrt sets mode: +o dxrt_ [01:24] *** dashcloud has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [01:47] *** dashcloud has joined #archiveteam-ot [01:56] *** icedice has quit IRC (Leaving) [01:56] *** icedice has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:01] *** BlueMax has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:03] *** nicolas17 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:28] *** Flashfire has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:28] *** Dallas has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [02:30] *** lunik1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:33] *** OrIdow6 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:35] *** kiska has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:35] *** marked12 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:37] *** marked1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:37] *** marked12 is now known as marked1 [02:38] *** OrIdow6 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:39] *** lunik1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:44] *** marked1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:46] *** marked15 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:46] *** marked15 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [02:53] *** marked1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:53] *** marked1 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [02:55] *** lunik10 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:55] *** lunik1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [02:55] *** lunik10 is now known as lunik1 [02:55] *** kiska has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:56] *** svchfoo3 sets mode: +o kiska [02:56] *** svchfoo1 sets mode: +o kiska [02:59] *** marked1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [03:22] *** kiska3 has joined #archiveteam-ot [03:36] *** marked1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [03:39] *** lunik1 has quit IRC (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) [03:39] *** marked1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [04:02] *** qw3rty__ has joined #archiveteam-ot [04:09] *** qw3rty_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [04:50] *** odemg has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [04:54] *** odemg has joined #archiveteam-ot [04:59] *** qw3rty_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [05:06] *** qw3rty__ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [05:21] *** DogsRNice has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [05:33] *** DrasticAc has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [05:33] *** DrasticAc has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:01] *** icedice2 has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:02] *** dxrt_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:02] *** paul2520 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:03] *** Wingy has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:03] *** dxrt_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:03] *** paul2520 has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:03] *** dxrt sets mode: +o dxrt_ [06:03] *** nightpool has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:03] *** kiska has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:03] *** nightpool has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:04] *** systwi_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:04] *** kiska has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:04] *** icedice has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [06:05] *** Wingy has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:05] *** svchfoo3 sets mode: +o kiska [06:07] *** atphoenix has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [06:07] *** atphoenix has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:09] *** systwi has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 622 seconds) [06:09] aaaannnd...EFNet drops for 8 minutes and finally comes back (again) [06:10] never noticed. [06:10] give efnet.portlane.se a try [06:14] I was last on irc.choopa.net [06:37] feels like musical chairs [06:38] pretty much [06:39] efnet is definitely not the european union. every server is a sovereign nation unto itself, sharing only namespace [06:40] on a good day, they continue sharing the same namespace instead of sharing somebody else's namespace, or noone else's. [06:40] in that case it is a bunch of squabbling nations [06:41] like most autocratic societies, they're not great at maintaining infrastructure [06:41] sometimes deciding they don't want to talk to each other (netsplits) [06:41] or communications :) [06:41] I hope IRC servers can detect loops [06:41] what kinda loops [06:43] Racooon, is your statement transitive? as the US is not great at maintaining infrastructure maybe it is autocratic? [06:44] atphoenix: i wouldn't say the US isn't great at maintaining infrastructure [06:44] *** Atom__ has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:44] we do have pretty damn high standards you know [06:44] roads and bridges...roads and bridges... [06:44] higher than any other place in the world? [06:44] yes. highest standards for roads and for bridges [06:44] we write the standards [06:45] Raccoon: IRC servers connect to each other forming a spanning tree [06:45] bad things would happen if there's a routing loop there, such that it's not a tree anymore [06:45] oh yeah. servers won't allow someone to connect that's already connected [06:45] all servers are always aware of the entire tree [06:46] I'm recommending a ring topology [06:46] or something self healing [06:46] if a server were to try looping around, i guess it could just be viewed as spoofing messages. [06:47] doesn't need a full ring, just at least several connections to other nodes [06:47] a properly written ircd would reject messages from a server when it knows for sure the source didn't come from beyond that server, but from a different pathway [06:47] mesh [06:47] ie, my server knows that you are coming from node C and not from nodes A B or D [06:47] so, it should reject any messages from you coming from A [06:48] *** Atom-- has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [06:49] *** nataraj has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:49] from what I read about netsplits...they can lead to trouble when the split halfs reconnect, like people taking OP powers where there normally should not [06:50] that's why TS (timestamps) were added, and the "nick/channel not available" errors [06:50] hasn't really been done since 2003 and earlier [06:51] on infra: yes, US does write standards, but to maintain infrastructure, it needs investing/rebuilding at the rate it wears out. Assuming roads have 50 years lives, that means 2% of roads need rebuilding annually...which is not happening. If it isn't happening, then we're eating our seedcorn and living off past infra investment. [06:52] i see road construction vehicles wherever there are commuters [06:52] if you live in one of the top 500 cities, you cannot commute to work without passing a road crew [06:53] that is true; doesn't mean the investment matches the aggregate wear down rate [06:53] *** nicolas17 has quit IRC (Konversation terminated!) [06:53] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [06:54] Can't be any worse than Iran [07:01] That's not on my list of places I'd want to live. Nor most places in Central Asia, nor India, nor China. However, they do have subways/mass transit in their major cities, and living without a car is possible. [07:07] America's major cities have pretty advanced mass transit, to the scale of many or most European cities. It's just that America also has suburbs and country and back-country, where other nations often do not. [08:12] I can't think of any transit in the US I'd call advanced, besides hyperloop which doesn't really exist [08:16] most of the east coast is pretty well connected, isn't it [08:18] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/World_railway_network.png [08:22] the US fastest train is Amtrak Acela, connects DC/NewYork/Boston. All the bids for that came from european train companies [08:24] that map must be showing both slow trains and high speed trains together. [08:24] I guess it's hard upgrading to new trains when you have the first trains [08:25] just like how Europe started using DSL and Fiber that America invented, before Americans ever got it [08:25] since we had functional first systems already in place that hadn't been paid off [08:25] https://i.redd.it/kx9clca22rk21.png [08:27] also helps that well-to-do business people ride the train in europe, but own their own cars in america. mainly only poor people ride the train in the us, and can't afford to upgrade the systems they use. [08:29] if rich people took the train, they could charge more for tickets, and buy new trains [08:38] obviously at-ot needs on at-ot-ot [08:38] an* [08:41] idk, once you're ot, does it matter how ot you get? [08:47] maybe? the topic says 'Wanna bikeshed about the topic?' what's the topic? maybe this is like a recursive acronym [08:49] *** nataraj has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [08:49] Presenting, "A Million Random Digits With 100,000 Normal Deviates" [08:51] 10097 32533 76520 13586 34673 54876 80959 09117 39292 74945 [08:51] etc. [08:52] (That is to say, there is certainly some standard for what goes into this channel, even though that doesn't prove that it is of great height.) [08:57] *** dewdrop9 has joined #archiveteam-ot [08:58] That's one of my favorite books. The amazon reviews are pretty good too [09:03] I imagine that book works about as well as counting sheep. Maybe better. [09:07] *** dewdrop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [09:07] *** dewdrop9 is now known as dewdrop [09:55] *** BlueMax has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:22] *** Dallas has joined #archiveteam-ot [10:28] *** nataraj has joined #archiveteam-ot [10:31] *** kiska has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:31] *** kiska has joined #archiveteam-ot [10:32] *** svchfoo3 sets mode: +o kiska [10:32] *** svchfoo1 sets mode: +o kiska [11:25] *** lunik1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [11:59] *** godane has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 610 seconds) [12:05] *** godane has joined #archiveteam-ot [12:10] *** icedice2 has quit IRC (Leaving) [12:27] "it's hard upgrading to new trains when you have the first trains" The US doesn't have the first trains. Those were in the UK mostly. Well, at least what we'd call a "train" nowadays. Many countries in Western and Central Europe started building railway networks in the 1830s or so, similar to the US. The real issue isn't that; it's that the network in the US was basically not maintained or developed [12:27] further for the last half a century or more. But surely the car and aviation industry lobbyists had nothing to do with that... [12:28] Raccoon: ^ [15:02] *** X-Scale` has joined #archiveteam-ot [15:07] *** X-Scale has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 610 seconds) [15:07] *** X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale [15:44] JAA: fair. i mean, our car lobby did tear up all the trams. but then when you see photos of bendy twisty third-world-lookin rail road tracks, it's not in the U.S. either. [15:45] so we must do something right at least in keeping them going straight [16:01] *** cerca has joined #archiveteam-ot [16:02] *** cerca has quit IRC (Client Quit) [17:16] *** dewdrop1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [17:26] *** dewdrop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [17:26] *** dewdrop1 is now known as dewdrop [17:35] Raccoon: Oh sure, the rails themselves might be straight, but the entire technology is horribly outdated. [17:38] I've been meaning to look more into. In europe, petrol/gasoline is much more expensive which I assume is taxation that goes into other transportation options [17:38] it takes a lot more than straight rails to run Shinkansen or TGV trainsets [17:38] in the use, the gasoline tax is called road tax, so I assume it's mostly going into road upkeep [17:40] US fuel taxes go into a general fund, which then in turn is used to pay for transportation infra, but fuel taxes are fixed $/gallon amounts and not inflation-indexed [17:40] so over decades they are effectively falling [17:40] US also has huge subsidies for fossil fuels. That's the main reason (as far as I know) why gasoline is so cheap there. [17:41] there are definitely quite a few fossil fuel exemptions/deductions/credits in the tax codes here [17:44] the renewable energy groups would be happy to see *all* subsidies/exemptions/credits go away. None for renewable energy and none for fossil fuels, is fine with them. [17:46] Yup [17:48] https://taxfoundation.org/oecd-gas-tax/ | https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-europe-2019/ [17:48] Better yet would be including the externalised costs in the prices. [17:52] *** VerifiedJ has joined #archiveteam-ot [17:53] Gasoline (1 gallon) NYC $2.98 (2.28 £) London UK $6.42 (4.91 £) [17:56] convert €0.65/L (euros per liter) to US dollars per gallon = $2.748/gal [17:59] Do electric cars get taxed differently in Europe? [18:04] Every country's different. [18:12] every state is different too [18:13] some have incentives, some have penalty fees, some have both [18:13] and some have neither [18:46] *** DogsRNice has joined #archiveteam-ot [19:14] *** DogsRNice has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [19:15] *** nicolas17 has joined #archiveteam-ot [20:12] *** nicolas17 has quit IRC (Konversation terminated!) [20:13] *** nicolas17 has joined #archiveteam-ot [20:15] *** nicolas17 has quit IRC (Client Quit) [20:17] *** nicolas17 has joined #archiveteam-ot [22:45] *** antomati_ is now known as antomatic [23:07] *** nataraj has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [23:13] *** BlueMax has joined #archiveteam-ot [23:33] *** Maylay has quit IRC (Quit: Pipe Terminated)