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06:04
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06:04
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HP_Archiv |
So furthering from #archiveteam-bs |
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06:04
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HP_Archiv |
Any IRC client recommendations? |
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06:16
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Raccoon |
what's your favorite OS desktop / terminal |
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06:20
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Mateon1 |
HP_Archiv: I haven't seen the -bs discussion, but: I used to care, but now, honestly, I gave up on looking for the "perfect" IRC client, and just switched to thunderbird because it's convenient |
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06:21
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Mateon1 |
And yes, thunderbird does have an IRC client, a lot of people don't know about that. |
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06:22
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HP_Archiv |
I strictly use Windows |
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06:22
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06:22
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HP_Archiv |
My only concern for an IRC client would be privacy. As long it's reputable/widely used and development is still there, I really have no other preference |
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06:23
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markedL |
I'm not saying much because I don't know Windows. I'll say in general, you'll use the first one unless/until you find something you can't stand. |
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06:24
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HP_Archiv |
So something like HexChat or mIRC.... thoughts? |
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06:24
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markedL |
I heard mIRC is nagware now, idk for sure myself. |
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06:24
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Mateon1 |
If you already use thunderbird for email, I suggest using its built-in chat option. It has conversation history for each channel like you're looking for. I have never used mIRC, but can recommend HexChat. |
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06:25
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Mateon1 |
I don't remember whether hexchat can access history from inside the application, but I'm pretty sure it keeps logs |
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06:25
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markedL |
in the msft store, the free trial is full version. |
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06:25
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HP_Archiv |
No. I use Gmail for email. All of this just to participate in the #archiveteam chat...? |
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06:26
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markedL |
$10 version is $10 donation |
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06:26
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markedL |
for hexchat |
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06:27
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Raccoon |
Windows: Famously mIRC. It's the widest used, actively developed, 24 years -- It is shareware, only 32-bit, single thread. Second option I'd suggest is AdiIRC, modeled after mIRC, supports mIRC's unique script language, technically better than mIRC. Hexchat is popular, pretty lacking, based on Xchat. I understand that IceChat is still being developed, hobby developer. |
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06:27
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markedL |
which is simple to setup? |
|
06:28
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Raccoon |
Freenode channels to join: ##mirc #adiirc #hexchat #icechat |
|
06:28
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Raccoon |
no irc client is simple to set up :) |
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06:28
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markedL |
webchat ;) |
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06:28
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Raccoon |
heh |
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06:28
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Mateon1 |
Most IRC clients are simple to "set up", in the sense of install, run, join network/channel, but you'll probably fiddle with the settings for years |
|
06:29
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Mateon1 |
I gave up on doing that and am now using mostly default thunderbird settings. |
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06:29
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Raccoon |
Thunderbird still around is it? |
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06:29
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HP_Archiv |
All I wanted to do was to further participate in the #archiveteam / #archiveteam-bs chat to better keep tabs on previous messages/history |
|
06:30
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|
HP_Archiv |
eg: scroll back if I sign out for a day and see missed messages |
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06:30
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: Maybe you should consider IRCCloud or Mibbit or Matrix or keep using that basic webchat you're currently on |
|
06:30
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|
Mateon1 |
Ah, if you mean messages that were said while you were logged off, that an inherent limitation of the IRC protocol. You can buy a service like IRCCloud that stays logged on and you can join and look through the messages at any time |
|
06:31
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|
Mateon1 |
Wait, does IRCCloud have a free plan? I need to look that up |
|
06:31
🔗
|
Raccoon |
yeah, if you want persistence, you'll have to generally pay a subscription to someone, or install ZNC on a remote terminal you can access, or install Wechat or Irssi on a terminal someplace |
|
06:31
🔗
|
HP_Archiv |
@Mateon1: yeah that's what I mean. |
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06:31
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Raccoon |
I don't think they do |
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06:32
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|
Raccoon |
If persistence were free, then IRC would be filled with 10 billion trillion sock puppets |
|
06:32
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|
HP_Archiv |
Hm, well that just sucks, heh. No, I'm not paying for an IRC chat client... think I might just stick to the web client for now. I appreciate the input though |
|
06:32
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|
markedL |
https://www.irccloud.com/pricing |
|
06:32
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|
markedL |
just use hexchat |
|
06:32
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|
Raccoon |
or adiirc |
|
06:33
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|
markedL |
it doesn't matter really, there's lots of free ones, but webchat is the worst |
|
06:33
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Raccoon |
technically, i think adiirc can be called superior in pretty much every category. i just have trouble having used mIRC for 22 years |
|
06:34
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|
HP_Archiv |
I'll check out mIRC since it's widely used |
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06:34
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|
HP_Archiv |
Thank you ^^ |
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06:34
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Raccoon |
Kinda wish I spent more time on a terminal so I could really enjoy Wechat |
|
06:35
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|
Mateon1 |
If I'm stuck in a terminal I just launch irssi, but then I always get stuck in the configuration rabbit hole |
|
06:35
🔗
|
Raccoon |
heh |
|
06:35
🔗
|
Mateon1 |
I should really clean up all the dotfiles that are spread out across all my computers |
|
06:36
🔗
|
Raccoon |
and sorry, that was WeeChat freenode #weechat |
|
06:38
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Whatever happened to Mozilla's ChatZilla client |
|
06:38
🔗
|
Raccoon |
did they just roll it into Thunderbird? |
|
06:40
🔗
|
Mateon1 |
I don't remember ChatZilla |
|
06:40
🔗
|
Mateon1 |
If it was the XMPP client, then yes, I think so |
|
06:40
🔗
|
HP_Archiv |
Since you both have been helpful with this, maybe you can assist with something else. I'd like to get full access to ingest a site or sites into archivebot with special commands. I was told there is a voice or something else. How do I do this? |
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06:40
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Raccoon |
I don't think it was, but I dunno. It used to be FireFox's default suggestion for irc:// links |
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06:40
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Raccoon |
in the before times I guess, now. |
|
06:41
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Mateon1 |
You need to be an op to give voice, they are the people with an @ sign before their usernames. I'm not sure what the protocol for that is here. |
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06:41
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HP_Archiv |
What is an op? |
|
06:42
🔗
|
Mateon1 |
Basically a channel's admin/moderator |
|
06:42
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|
Raccoon |
the people with the dead worms next to their names |
|
06:42
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|
HP_Archiv |
Heh |
|
06:42
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|
Raccoon |
or maybe a green dot depending on your client |
|
06:43
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HP_Archiv |
Okay, well since I have an on-going project with associated websites I want archived and ingested into the WBM (and eventually IA) I'd like to get privileges and become an OP. |
|
06:43
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HP_Archiv |
How do I do this and not rely on those with @ in their handle every time I want to submit a site? |
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06:44
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Mateon1 |
We're probably not the people to ask, then. I'm just doing a small archiving project in between university work. |
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06:44
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Raccoon |
Someone like JAA maybe has a good primer for you to dive into |
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06:45
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HP_Archiv |
@JAA: Can you assist? |
|
06:45
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HP_Archiv |
Thanks guys |
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06:45
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markedL |
every site needs a different technique |
|
06:46
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|
HP_Archiv |
Oh, so it's all custom. That makes sense I guess |
|
06:46
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markedL |
the 3 people you were asking for help from should be asleep now |
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06:46
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Raccoon |
and to that end, every site usually gets an irc channel of its own. |
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06:46
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markedL |
so patience goes a long way here |
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06:46
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Raccoon |
eg, the death of Yahoo Groups is #yahoosucks |
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06:46
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markedL |
I don't remember what site you were working on |
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06:46
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HP_Archiv |
I'm very new at all of this, I appreciate you taking the time to provide details ^^ |
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06:46
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markedL |
but if they said the loaded in AB it does it's thing automatically |
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06:47
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Raccoon |
There is also #internetarchive for IA/WBM |
|
06:47
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markedL |
getting voice ops to archivebot sounds like a desirable, but then you have to babysit the jobs you submit |
|
06:48
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|
HP_Archiv |
I was trying to archive the entirety of HP-Games.net which is a Potter-games site dedicated to modding. However, there's a section dedicated entirely to Mods/Custom maps for these games. But each specific map has outlinks to a hosted Google Drive or Yandex download. And not only do I want to archive all of these pages, but also download/capture and re-upload into archivebot. Was told in #archiveteam-bs that this would be tricky |
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06:49
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|
HP_Archiv |
And I have no idea how to do this ^^ |
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06:49
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: is the site going under? |
|
06:49
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|
HP_Archiv |
I'll just link as an example: https://hp-games.net/all-mods |
|
06:50
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|
HP_Archiv |
And no, technically not. But it could be slapped with a dmca request at any moment considering the games are licensed under WB/EA |
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06:50
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|
Raccoon |
I understand there are infact client downloaders for Google Drive, Yandex, etc cloud hosting services |
|
06:52
🔗
|
Raccoon |
i assume if wget can't slurp them, then you can compile a list of urls to feed to a different software that does |
|
06:52
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|
HP_Archiv |
I guess what I'm picturing in my mind is a near-exact replica of this entire site eventually captured and put on IA, where the download links you see on that page would function just as they do in the live version of the site. eg; you click on a mod map files and the IA prompts for the download of that particular map file. |
|
06:52
🔗
|
Raccoon |
maybe. That's an #internetarchive thing |
|
06:52
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|
Raccoon |
I know you can also find media downloads in IA for full compilations rather than having to wade through an old half-broken replica of a site |
|
06:53
🔗
|
HP_Archiv |
Hm, okay. The problem is that HP-Games.net doesn't actually host the files. It outlinks to online storage. So I'm trying to port over the site, while reconfiguring how the files are hosted |
|
06:53
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|
Raccoon |
with torrent links and the whole shebang |
|
06:53
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|
Raccoon |
so it's your site |
|
06:53
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|
HP_Archiv |
Not my site. But I good friends with the person who maintains it |
|
06:53
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|
HP_Archiv |
And yes, do have permission to do this |
|
06:54
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|
HP_Archiv |
I'm good friends* |
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06:54
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|
Raccoon |
i'm not driving at that |
|
06:54
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Raccoon |
just wondering why you don't swipe his harddrive and upload it to IA |
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06:54
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|
HP_Archiv |
Heh.. One caveat, he's in Russia and I am in California |
|
06:55
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|
HP_Archiv |
We're part of a much larger HP Modding community on Discord. But he's had this site up for years |
|
06:55
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|
HP_Archiv |
And I'm actually working on a much bigger project than just archiving the site - digital preservation of the early 00's Harry Potter PC games |
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06:55
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|
Raccoon |
Operation Red Sparrow House Elf |
|
06:55
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|
Raccoon |
maybe utilizing weather balloons, or owls |
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06:56
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HP_Archiv |
Lol |
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06:56
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nepeat has joined #archiveteam-ot |
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06:56
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Raccoon |
I would try to keep in mind that the WBM is not a web hosting service |
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06:56
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astrid |
yes :) |
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06:57
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|
HP_Archiv |
I'm aware - but #archiveteam creates backups of sites all the time. Why wouldn't this be a valid canidate? |
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06:57
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|
Raccoon |
ideally, only le crem de la Cremlin finds its way there :) |
|
06:58
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|
HP_Archiv |
candidate* |
|
06:58
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|
HP_Archiv |
I mean the project has its own merits - I have several Warner executives and one person out of the Library of Congress helping with the bigger aspect of the project. |
|
06:58
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|
Raccoon |
I mean, I dunno. It's just dirty when the site developer is himself involved with finding a way to avoid hosting his own content |
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06:59
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|
astrid |
is it? |
|
06:59
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Raccoon |
isn't it? |
|
06:59
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|
astrid |
so the scenario is, someone wants to put something in the archive instead of deleting it? |
|
06:59
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|
astrid |
or am i reading the room wrong |
|
06:59
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HP_Archiv |
I disagree. Though I'm not a heavy gamer at all, open-access and copyright issues generally speaking force people to get involved in offshore hosting |
|
07:00
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|
Raccoon |
"I don't want to pay for AWS, and Google Drive is being a pain. Host it for me from the wayback machine" |
|
07:00
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|
Raccoon |
that was my impression |
|
07:00
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|
HP_Archiv |
Specifically, these particular Potter PC games from 2001-2005 are bound up in a 3-way copyright struggle between JK Rowling, Electronic Arts, and Warner Brothers. And they haven't been remastered. |
|
07:00
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|
astrid |
IA and Google Drive are not replacements for each other, no, Raccoon |
|
07:00
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|
HP_Archiv |
No, @Racoon, he hasn't uploaded them to Drive. |
|
07:01
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|
HP_Archiv |
Those are different modders/owners of files. Each is a different Google Drive account from various people |
|
07:01
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|
Raccoon |
I see |
|
07:01
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|
HP_Archiv |
Or a one-off backup to Yandex as well |
|
07:01
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|
HP_Archiv |
I'm looking to backup the entire site w/outlinked mod files in case of a copyright takedown. Simple as that |
|
07:02
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|
astrid |
i dont think im qualified to issue an Official Archiveteam Elder Council Opinion or whatever about this today |
|
07:02
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|
* |
astrid goes back to her hacking |
|
07:02
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|
Raccoon |
I don't think official statements are allowed in -ot anyway |
|
07:02
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|
astrid |
who's the one wearing the snail hat |
|
07:02
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|
Raccoon |
dead worm! |
|
07:02
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|
astrid |
lol |
|
07:02
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|
astrid |
it's a snail hat :( |
|
07:03
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HP_Archiv |
@astrid, since you're an OP, can you assist with this? |
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07:03
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|
astrid |
what's up HP_Archiv |
|
07:04
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|
Raccoon |
dang, what was the name of that open source cloud storage download manager program I used ages ago |
|
07:04
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|
HP_Archiv |
I want to archive the entire HP-games.net site. But in doing so, example this page, https://hp-games.net/all-mods , want to all archive all outlinked files |
|
07:04
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|
Raccoon |
that would be a start for personally yanking all the remotely hosted files to your local machine, to tidy up and organize |
|
07:04
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|
HP_Archiv |
The outlinked files are from various people, hosting files from their own private GDrive or as a backup with Yandex. |
|
07:05
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|
Raccoon |
along with a README file and other metadatas, pop in a zip and upload to #internetarchive |
|
07:05
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astrid |
HP_Archiv: this sounds like a big collection that could do with some manual curation from you, so download it all and make it a nice presentable collection of items created with https://archive.org/upload |
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07:05
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Raccoon |
what she said |
|
07:06
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|
astrid |
an "item" can contain one or many files, whatever you think should belong together forever |
|
07:06
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|
HP_Archiv |
That's not a problem. I can do that. However, how do superimpose once the site is archived on IA eg: have the same outlinks point to the hosted collection of curated files? |
|
07:06
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|
HP_Archiv |
Or is that simply beyond the scope of site archiving? |
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07:06
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|
astrid |
there isn't a way to link the two nicely. |
|
07:06
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|
astrid |
technical limitation |
|
07:07
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|
HP_Archiv |
I was afraid of that. Hm |
|
07:08
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|
Raccoon |
otrrlibrary.org has, since around 2012, slowly been curating its archive of Old Time Radio programmes into tidy collections, uploading to IA, then simply pointing to that link |
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07:08
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dhyan_nat has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) |
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07:08
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HP_Archiv |
Oh well. I'll go ahead and get all of the files together nicely. @astrid can you please ingest hp-games.net and then https://hp-games.net/all-mods URLs so they're archived correctly? |
|
07:08
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|
astrid |
that's a lot of work and it's nearly midnight and i'm not sober |
|
07:09
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HP_Archiv |
This ^^ is why I wanted op voice command |
|
07:09
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|
HP_Archiv |
No worries |
|
07:09
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|
markedL |
I get you're in CA but assume half the people here are in Europe so you'll get better answers earlier in the day |
|
07:09
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astrid |
markedL: who are you talking to |
|
07:09
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HP_Archiv |
He's talking to me |
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07:10
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astrid |
o |
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07:10
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astrid |
sorry |
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07:10
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HP_Archiv |
I'm based out of California, actually not that far away from the IA's HQ |
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07:10
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: here's one such example of what people upload to IA which was previously hosted elsewheres on the web. https://archive.org/details/OTRR_X_Minus_One_Singles |
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07:10
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markedL |
is OTRR out of copyright in general? |
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07:10
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astrid |
i personally would have made that item into 150 separate items, but, hey, i'm not them |
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07:11
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Raccoon |
and it's sister archive (including more technically superior minutia and archivist materials) https://archive.org/details/OTRR_Certified_X_Minus_One |
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07:11
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HP_Archiv |
@Raccoon, thank you. This is a good example |
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07:11
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Raccoon |
the latter example has a much more structured directory |
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07:12
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Raccoon |
astrid: seems to work in the IA player, and they did it in 2008 |
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07:12
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HP_Archiv |
So we, the community helping me with this massive project, have gone ahead and put together a 'working archive directory' for these games |
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07:12
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HP_Archiv |
https://archive.org/details/archive_browser_directory_structure |
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07:13
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HP_Archiv |
https://archive.org/details/@harry_potter_games_preservation_project |
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07:13
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HP_Archiv |
It's a work in progress *shrugs* |
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07:13
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astrid |
so here's another collection that i curated ... i took these 25k pdfs and put one per item, and got a collection created by IA admins to hold it and make it look all nice https://archive.org/details/etsi_standards |
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07:14
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Raccoon |
markedL: OTRR is not out of copyright until another couple decades, unfortunately :( |
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07:14
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astrid |
i need to freshen the collection sometime, there are a few thousand more pdfs published by them now |
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07:15
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HP_Archiv |
Good examples ^^ I'd like to get the polished collection-look you have going there. Any critiques on the pages I linked that you guys can offer up? |
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07:15
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Raccoon |
markedL: audio works have now been reformatted (as of 2019) to 95 years +5 for the era of these shows |
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07:15
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HP_Archiv |
(Bearing in mind, I know it's late where most of you are, heh) |
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07:16
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Raccoon |
(OTR is also kind of unique, because the licenses are often so spread out thin, that there's really no single rights holder to bully people around, and also weird things to do with federal funding) |
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07:17
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Raccoon |
((things aired for the armed forces, the mutual broadcast system, etc) |
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07:17
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HP_Archiv |
I'd welcome any critiquing for the directory I've put together thus far ^^ |
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07:18
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: btw, you will want this Windows program. VoidTool's Everything @ https://www.voidtools.com/downloads/ |
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07:19
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Raccoon |
you can't curate an archive without it, not really. |
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07:19
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HP_Archiv |
Open source? |
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07:20
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Raccoon |
I think yes, or maybe just an API |
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07:20
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Raccoon |
I've been using it for a decade at least |
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07:20
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HP_Archiv |
And how does that differ from, say: Invenio, Islandora, Haiku, Samvera, Dspace ? |
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07:20
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Raccoon |
I never heard of any of those 5 |
|
07:21
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HP_Archiv |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSpace |
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07:21
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HP_Archiv |
I come to the table, here, in framing everything in an academic context |
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07:21
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Raccoon |
If you have something better than Windows Explorer, you're already ahead of the game |
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07:21
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HP_Archiv |
These are open-sourced software that are used in academic/institutional settings |
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07:22
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Raccoon |
I'm just talking about walking your own filesystem and directory structures with a meaningful interface |
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07:22
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HP_Archiv |
Agreed, just surprised nobody knows of these in here. |
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07:22
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Raccoon |
robust filtering, regular expression patterns, etc |
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07:22
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Raccoon |
bulk renaming |
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07:23
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HP_Archiv |
Hm, okay |
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07:23
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HP_Archiv |
I guess I'm looking to do this in this most proper way possible, and use the same tools that an institution might (regardless of obvious overkill) |
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07:24
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Raccoon |
find all folders that DO have both a .PNG and a README file?: child:.png child:README |
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07:24
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Raccoon |
stuff like that |
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07:25
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HP_Archiv |
I get what you're saying ^^ |
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07:25
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HP_Archiv |
No criticisms or constructive critiquing on my the directory I've put together? |
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07:26
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HP_Archiv |
And yeah - they are only computer games. So I can hear the eye rolling, heh. But if people *really* want things to be around indefinitely, you *really do* have to dedicate an awful lot of time and resources to doing things correctly |
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07:26
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Raccoon |
sorry, I must have missed what you were asking. You mean your upload from August 25th? |
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07:27
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HP_Archiv |
No worries, and yes ^^ |
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07:27
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Raccoon |
computer games are culturally significant. especially the older ones that took skill to build |
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07:27
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Raccoon |
I'm all over preventing copyright-driven oblivion |
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07:28
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HP_Archiv |
I'm glad we share the same opinion. Agreed, Raccoon. It's these Potter games specifically that I want to see curated and preserved. We're looking for the holy grail so to speak, the prototype source archive for HP 1, Sorcerer's Stone, from 2001. |
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07:28
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Raccoon |
hmm, dang. IA doesn't let me peek inside .7z files |
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07:28
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HP_Archiv |
Ah, I took of care that. You'll want to view the html file |
|
07:29
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HP_Archiv |
Again, a lot of still needs work. For some reason, the Google Drive export create a double-copy of each files hency while you'll see duplicates in the tree |
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07:29
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Raccoon |
oh, i found the nav |
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07:30
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HP_Archiv |
^^ |
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07:31
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Raccoon |
I'd say that looks good to me. Could maybe use more per-directory README files that gives a tweet-length description of every file/.zip |
|
07:32
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Raccoon |
Or maybe like astrid was saying, smaller clumps, since 14.4G can be unwieldly to the average researcher |
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07:33
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astrid |
when clumping you don't want to put more than about 10G in a single item |
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07:33
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astrid |
when you are making it presentable to humans, you want it to be fairly small |
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07:33
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astrid |
think one of those narrow boxes of loose papers on a bookshelf |
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07:33
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astrid |
not the whole aisle of books |
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07:34
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Raccoon |
I use the walmart plastic tub stratographic filing system, myself. |
|
07:34
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HP_Archiv |
There was a meme posted a while back in the Archivist Think Tank FB group... read something like: First person, 'But nobody reads the damn labels..." second person, But I have so much knowledge to give!" |
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07:35
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HP_Archiv |
:) |
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07:35
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HP_Archiv |
These are good suggestions though |
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07:35
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HP_Archiv |
Thank you both ^^ |
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07:36
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Raccoon |
Hopefully you can forget all the nonsense I made up on the spot |
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07:36
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|
|
dhyan_nat has joined #archiveteam-ot |
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07:36
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HP_Archiv |
So I've done other work, unrelated on family films. If you think 10 or 14GBs is a lot... https://archive.org/details/taloccifamilyfilms |
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07:37
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HP_Archiv |
When you digitized moving image film correctly into DPX and TIFF sequencing, file and size add up pretty quickly |
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07:37
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Raccoon |
I've delved into sharing terabytes, locally / regionally anyway, it's not necessarily pretty |
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07:38
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HP_Archiv |
file number* |
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07:39
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HP_Archiv |
No, it's not. And I keep hearing that .DPX is too cumbersome a format for film preservation. Because the repo's are absolutely huge |
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07:39
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Raccoon |
if I could magic one thing into existence, it would be a form of offline-journaling filesystem for syncing two drives together for magical collaboration |
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07:39
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Raccoon |
built into the FS |
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07:39
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HP_Archiv |
That directory of family films I linked above, uncompressed is just under 2TBs, for about 40 minutes of Super 8 film from the 70's... |
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07:39
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astrid |
HP_Archiv: we try to keep items under 10g because IA can't split a single item across multiple disk drives. so the bigger items get, the trickier the job of the auto-balancing disk allocater gets |
|
07:40
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astrid |
and keep in mind that yes if you make an item bigger than a normal drive it'll cause issues |
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07:40
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astrid |
10g is big enough for most uses, and not a hard limit |
|
07:41
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HP_Archiv |
Well the thing is, @astrid when you have 40 minutes of film, right, and in film preservation you have each frame representing a single file, a scan.. you can end up with hundreds of thousands of files. In my case, about 90,000 DPX and 90,000 TIFF files |
|
07:41
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Raccoon |
also, if these are "old games" for "old systems", then probably 4GB is too large |
|
07:41
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astrid |
yeah sure i'm not saying it's bad |
|
07:41
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astrid |
i'm explaining why i said 10g |
|
07:42
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HP_Archiv |
Oh I know, I'm just furthering explaining why those films are so large in upload size. |
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07:42
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astrid |
i'm not stupid, i can see that it's a frame scan |
|
07:42
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HP_Archiv |
Digitization is not the catch-all solution for film preservation, clearly... you can re-fresh millions of files every so often when you have one particular film resulting in, say, 30TB's of DPX files... |
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07:43
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HP_Archiv |
can't* refresh* |
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07:43
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HP_Archiv |
For those films, I actually handed over a physical drive with copies of the data to the IA vs uploading over the internet. It wouldn't have been practical to upload. |
|
07:44
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HP_Archiv |
But I had the films scanned in 2K, and in theory Super 8 can be scanned even higher in 5K. Could you imagine the size output? Incredible |
|
07:45
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Raccoon |
are TIFFs necessary anymore? |
|
07:45
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HP_Archiv |
Good question. Depends on your needs. I had the scanhouse I used scan to both DPX, TIFF and ProRes files simply because they offered it and, at the time, I thought that the more varied formats the better |
|
07:46
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Raccoon |
are they uncompressed TIFFs or LZW compressed at least? |
|
07:48
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|
Raccoon |
I wonder if your scan house would merely convert the single scan to the other 2 file formats, or if the guy just punched the machine to scan for 2nd and 3rd times |
|
07:48
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HP_Archiv |
Everything is uncompressed. And actually, the technician at the IA who helped me with this, didn't upload correctly. The films there are in 2 reels. So for each, I had the scanhouse scan both reels in DPX, both reels in TIFF, and both to 2 ProRes files |
|
07:49
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Raccoon |
oh gee, so you have 3 scan passes |
|
07:49
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HP_Archiv |
He uploaded reel 1, in dpx and reel 2, in TIFF, when in reality, he should've uploaded R 1 & 2 in DPX and the a second copy of each in TIFF |
|
07:49
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HP_Archiv |
Yup |
|
07:49
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Raccoon |
I wonder if that opens up any further opportunity for remastering |
|
07:50
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Raccoon |
image stacking |
|
07:50
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HP_Archiv |
Yeah, it does. And that's a really great question @Racoon |
|
07:50
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HP_Archiv |
DPX is, by right, supposed to be edited in Final Cut for example. I simply don't have the computer resources to do that sort of mini-movie remastering, nor that technique or skills |
|
07:50
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Raccoon |
"two out of three scans don't have that hair right there" |
|
07:51
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HP_Archiv |
Heh ^^ |
|
07:52
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Raccoon |
I was a dipshit and brought a brought several rolls of 20 year old 35mm to be developed... at Walmart |
|
07:52
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HP_Archiv |
I spent the better part of the past decade trying to do all of this, self-taught. A lot of time researching, reaching out to institutions and fielding answers from credible/helpful people in film preservation |
|
07:52
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|
Raccoon |
The minimum wage employee seemed non plussed about blackening all of them |
|
07:53
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|
HP_Archiv |
It came down to http://cinelicious.tv in downtown LA vs https://www.gammaraydigital.com/ in Boston, Mass. I chose GammaRay because they were a bit cheaper and I lived in Boston at the time as well. |
|
07:55
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|
HP_Archiv |
Both have big-name clients but GammaRay was great. It was a pricey experience. But ever since I had this done 2014, I've been re-migrating data. All those files. So in an effort to open-source old family films, I donated a copy of everything (well almost everything, as explained by that goof-up the IA technician did) to IA and took some of the pressure of re-migrating data every so often |
|
07:56
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|
HP_Archiv |
*shrugs* I was born in the early 90's. These films are of a parent and siblings and my grandparents. When I say I come to the table wanting things to be done correctly, in an academic context, I wasn't kidding :) |
|
07:56
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HP_Archiv |
Do you have the negatives? If so, you can always get them done correctly |
|
07:57
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|
Raccoon |
yes. the negatives are developed and I put it under a 20k dpi scanner on the university. there's a vague shadow of the former images |
|
07:58
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|
Raccoon |
did you ever make a modest useful cut of your films, so they can be shared on social media |
|
08:00
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|
HP_Archiv |
Yes, aside from viewing on IA video player directly, I uploaded the ProRes/Quicktime files (which are smaller in size at around 30GBs each) to a YouTube channel |
|
08:01
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|
HP_Archiv |
So the films can be viewed easily. It's the raw, master data that a pain to keep alive |
|
08:01
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Raccoon |
indeed. |
|
08:02
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|
HP_Archiv |
I have various backups in place. But in any archives work, the question that anyone in working in this field will bring up is, 'What are saving at the end of the day, and how many resources can we put towards saving it?" |
|
08:02
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|
Raccoon |
hell, it's a pain to keep simple cans of film if Universal Studios is any indication. Don't worry about oxygen and rot, they always catch fire long before they turn to dust |
|
08:02
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|
HP_Archiv |
These are old family films from the 70's. But they are a window into my lineage, a window into the past. And I can't put a price tag on that. |
|
08:02
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|
HP_Archiv |
That was a travesty ^^ |
|
08:03
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|
Raccoon |
and if they don't catch fire, the BBC will melt them for the war effort |
|
08:03
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|
HP_Archiv |
UMG needs to be held liable, but to what extent I am not sure |
|
08:03
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|
Raccoon |
have the BBC melt them down :) |
|
08:03
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|
HP_Archiv |
Lol |
|
08:04
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|
HP_Archiv |
The missing Who episodes ^^ |
|
08:04
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|
Raccoon |
guess who keeps rescuing old culturally-significant media? that's right, pirates and bootleggers |
|
08:06
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|
HP_Archiv |
Actually, the Super 8 film that is the source material for these films I've shared is in good shape, thankfully. No brittleness or dedegration before I came along. I sent the films to a place in Hollywood that uses commercial grade film cleaning machines. They're called Lipsner-Smith, the brand. A lot of major Hollywood studios will implement these machine |
|
08:06
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|
Raccoon |
If it still exists, it's probably because it was stolen before it could be destoryed. |
|
08:06
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|
HP_Archiv |
That's a great footnote, agreed |
|
08:07
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|
HP_Archiv |
In sort of the same context, getting back to the HP games for a moment, you might've noticed on the main page a mention of the 'HP 2 Prototype' - this only exists thanks to a former developer who disregarded an NDA from EA and kept a local source directory on a personal, non-work machine |
|
08:08
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|
Raccoon |
I'm waiting for the first 100% digitally authored book to become completely destroyed due to DRM and the expiration of license keys |
|
08:09
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|
HP_Archiv |
We wouldn't have had the Chamber of Secrets prototype source files if it wasn't for this person. And hence why we're after the first-ever Potter game's prototype files. It's been 17 years, and highly unlikely it exists at all |
|
08:09
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|
Raccoon |
nice |
|
08:10
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|
HP_Archiv |
But I and others are in communication with several WB executives, one former head of licensing who oversaw the Potter game development specifically, who expressed interest/piqued curiosity regarding the nature of the project, since it's altruistic |
|
08:10
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|
HP_Archiv |
Yes ^^ |
|
08:10
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|
Raccoon |
I shared files from old game betas (c2001) on old drive backups, that helped people recreate parts of the Asheron's Call game, which there is now an emulation server |
|
08:11
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|
Raccoon |
If you follow WB you might have heard about the particular outrage over this game |
|
08:11
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|
HP_Archiv |
The person out of the LoC is in the audio/visual department, where they have a modest workflow for video game preservation. Quoting him, 'The Library of Congress is very much interested in participating in conversations regarding acquisition of video/computer game prototype or development-related digital assets.' |
|
08:11
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|
Raccoon |
WB went on a mad tirade trying to get the emulator shut down and the developers arrested |
|
08:11
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|
HP_Archiv |
I have not heard this, but it's not surprising. We have been walking a fine line for who to reach out, and who not to. |
|
08:12
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|
Raccoon |
but then there are success stories like Subspace aka Continuum that even made its way to Steam. "Illegally" |
|
08:13
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|
HP_Archiv |
If you ever hear of HP Sorcerer's Stone PC game proto/dev file or anything related to development files, please get in touch. On that IA page for the Potter games there are emails there should you ever hear or see anything in passing. |
|
08:13
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|
HP_Archiv |
:_ |
|
08:13
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|
HP_Archiv |
:) * |
|
08:13
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|
Raccoon |
That game is split at least 4, 5 or 6 ways and nobody really knows who owns it after a dozen mergers and property splits |
|
08:13
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|
HP_Archiv |
^^ this |
|
08:14
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|
Raccoon |
Virgin Games probably has a nugget of license |
|
08:14
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|
Raccoon |
in some tiny foreign country |
|
08:15
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|
HP_Archiv |
So the first 3 HP games were contracted out for dev under EA, but through a sub-company called KnowWonder. Which eventually folded, was acquired by a company called, Amaze Entertainment, which folded too, and was bought out by a now-defunct Foundation 9. |
|
08:15
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|
Raccoon |
I'll keep my ear out |
|
08:15
🔗
|
HP_Archiv |
The copyright licensing angles are such a bitch, it's not even funny |
|
08:15
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|
HP_Archiv |
Thank you :) |
|
08:16
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|
Raccoon |
One of the funny things about SubSpace is that part of the networking side it got sold to... I dunno what order... FAST, KaZaA, and Skype (eBay/Microsoft?) |
|
08:16
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|
Raccoon |
Somebody owns the peer connect tech at least |
|
08:17
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|
Raccoon |
doubt anybody remembers |
|
08:18
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|
HP_Archiv |
This is thing - these game studios seem to all be plagued with the same fate of closure/being gobbled up by a bigger/flashier studio or just being dissolved altogether. |
|
08:18
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|
HP_Archiv |
And the company assets, which would include things like game prototypes and development files, have to be hosted somewhere. I can't imagine they just mass-delete things |
|
08:18
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|
Raccoon |
And here's the newest thing in Video Games being erased due to license. Watch this video and you might cry yourself to sleep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTkxzQDo0ng |
|
08:19
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|
Raccoon |
oh. they don't mass-delete things. they just stop paying for the hosting these days |
|
08:19
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|
Raccoon |
or they close the offices and the contents are denatured and auctioned |
|
08:20
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|
Raccoon |
It's not like Sierra Online ever saved the source code to Kings Quest and Leisure Suit Larry. It was core devs that brought the disks home with them. |
|
08:21
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|
HP_Archiv |
Watching that vid now. And the thing is - the latest in our communication is from a former dev who worked on both HP 1 and HP 2. I just received the latest email from him last night, which I can share with you herem |
|
08:21
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|
HP_Archiv |
That's exactly the case with the HP 2 dev - he brought the files home with him, a perchance scenario |
|
08:21
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|
HP_Archiv |
Here's what this dev said yesterday, with name redacted for privacy of others |
|
08:22
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|
HP_Archiv |
"here’s not one single prototype build. That trailer TCRF is comparing against used footage from several different versions of the game from the last few months of production. If you’re looking for a single snapshot of the depot from that time, or near the end, then what I had would have worked for you, but again those discs were destroyed. However you might try contacting name-redacted, who most recently worked on Blackout Club |
|
08:22
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|
HP_Archiv |
Oh, well that didn't copy. Damn IRC... |
|
08:22
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|
Raccoon |
You have to consider that PUBLISHING companies don't care about retaining assets for cultural significance. If a product is floundering, like it's grossing below $5 million a year to keep alive, then you send it to the chop shop to be divvied out to anyone willing to buy bits and pieces |
|
08:22
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|
HP_Archiv |
"There’s not one single prototype build. That trailer TCRF is comparing against used footage from several different versions of the game from the last few months of production. If you’re looking for a single snapshot of the depot from that time, or near the end, then what I had would have worked for you, but again those discs were destroyed. However you might try contacting name-redacted, who most recently worked on Blackout Clu |
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08:22
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Raccoon |
the same way you sell old car parts on ebay |
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08:22
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HP_Archiv |
"If you’re looking for a copy of the entire repo... I suspect that’s long gone. That would have been on a server at Knowwonder / Amaze Entertainment, but that company no longer exists. You’d need to find someone who worked IT, and someone who has a working copy of the source control software we used back then." |
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08:23
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HP_Archiv |
Yeah... I am realizing this ^^ |
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08:24
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markedL |
I installed hexchat. relatively easy to get started |
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08:24
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HP_Archiv |
The trailer he's talking about was a promo that was previewed at an E3 in 2001. But there were major changes to the game prior to it's release, but post-trailer of that demo. And we're after the entire repository. |
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08:25
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Raccoon |
markedL: there goes another 20 years of your life, poking and tweeking :) |
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08:25
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HP_Archiv |
And again, just on a perchance scenario, the HP 2 dev, different person, had that entire repo for HP2 plus the entire source package for Unreal, all saved on a local disc |
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08:25
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markedL |
so the best IRC client must be the one with no config options |
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08:25
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HP_Archiv |
The odds that HP 1's proto repository exists are slim, but I still have hope, heh |
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08:26
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HP_Archiv |
Anyway... @Raccoon it's been very nice chatting. Thank you for this ^^ |
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08:27
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: certainly. hopefully more bits of media and resources continue to reveal themelves |
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08:27
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HP_Archiv |
Gotta keep the faith ^^ |
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08:27
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Raccoon |
I do recommend that youtube link though. it was very enlightening, I had never even considered this was a practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTkxzQDo0ng |
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08:27
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HP_Archiv |
Oh right, thanks. I had paused it to continue chatting. I'll watch now |
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Raccoon |
++ |
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11:36
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ivan |
if someone could manage the YouTube archiving better than me in #youtubearchive that would give me more time to write the code that needs to be written |
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11:36
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ivan |
I threw in a lot of channels and some of them don't really need to be archived |
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ivan |
channel popularity is not the best metric as it doesn't discover the more interesting stuff, easier to find with searches and digging through related channels |
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12:07
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HP_Archiv |
@ivan, I have a very long list of YouTube channels, academic/science based. But would the archiving process simply use YouTube-dl or do you have access to the original videos through the API? |
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12:07
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ivan |
HP_Archiv: I have access to whatever youtube-dl grabs, which is a muxed webm or mp4, and it is usually good enough |
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12:08
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ivan |
I kinda doubt youtube serves original-quality through their API |
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12:08
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ivan |
they had this for a subset of videos many years ago as a public format |
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12:08
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HP_Archiv |
@Raccoon I did watch the video on Driver San Francisco. That was just great, thank you for sharing 'creators who aren't capable/worthy of curating their own art' is fitting for this overall issue of game preservation |
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12:08
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ivan |
HP_Archiv: join #youtubearchive and !a everything soon after the # of tasks drops |
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12:10
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HP_Archiv |
@ivan, okay. I sort of conceded a while ago that while YT DL does a good job and all, it's not *actually* the original videos, obviously. And when we're talking about *actual* digital preservation, you go to the source material. What YouTube-dl is doing is not grabbing the source material, by an edited version of it, sadly. |
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12:10
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* |
Raccoon tries to convince ivan to switch to mp4/m4a then re-download and replace all his .webm junk ;) |
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12:10
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HP_Archiv |
Just want to make sure you're aware. ^^ |
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12:10
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ivan |
_actual_ digital preservation |
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12:10
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HP_Archiv |
but an edited* |
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12:12
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Raccoon |
HP_Archiv: I had to make a rationalization a long time ago, that I cannot possibly preserve every subatomic particle, and that sometimes 2500 kb/s at 1080p is 'good enough.' |
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12:12
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ivan |
Raccoon: I agree that .webm is junk but it does allow me to save more stuff |
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12:12
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HP_Archiv |
Beginning of the year, first learning how to use Youtube-dl, I pinged one of the main devs. Asked about this very question 'Is it really grabbing the original videos uploaded by the user?' - No. I then gave an example of film preservation. If you were going to preserve 'Gone with the Wind' in 2K or 8K resolution, you would not pull from a copy of Blu-Ray master. |
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12:12
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Raccoon |
and certainly better than nothing. at the very least, I'll have the world's best collection of "thumbnail videos." |
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12:13
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Raccoon |
ivan: and indeed, better than nothing. |
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12:13
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HP_Archiv |
You would source the original 35mm or 70mm physical film print that sit in the vault at MGM |
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12:13
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Raccoon |
well, you wouldn't do that either |
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12:13
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HP_Archiv |
Lol @Raccoon, yes, yes |
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12:13
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HP_Archiv |
Agreed |
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12:14
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HP_Archiv |
It's better than nothing is what I came to as well, not that long ago for YT DL |
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12:14
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Raccoon |
i mean, material sources are great, but you do not possess the talent of the 40 people who worked on directing, printing, cutting and editing the final cut |
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12:14
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Raccoon |
you could spend 100 years locked in a room with that spool of film and never come close to "Gone With The Wind" |
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12:15
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HP_Archiv |
If you really want to split hairs, yeah, you're spot on and correct |
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12:15
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Raccoon |
while I'm sitting pretty with my 2500 KB/s rendition ;) |
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12:15
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Raccoon |
there's always a balance |
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12:16
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HP_Archiv |
^^ I posted thread on r/Datahoarder about this back in March. And the prevailing viewpoint on there among many - not all - is that YT Dl is 'digital preservation' |
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12:16
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HP_Archiv |
The short answer is yes, but the real answer is no |
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12:17
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HP_Archiv |
*shrugs* If it's as good as we can get, I agree, then that's all we have to work with. I just don't like this aura that surrounds it that YT Dl is the answer to preserving YouTube videos, heh |
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12:18
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Raccoon |
it's also hard to tell after you finish shooting Gone With The Wind in a hot sweaty desert, just exactly what material is worth loading on the truck and saving, what wardrobe should go back to the local wardrobe-for-hire folks, what should be sent back to the studio, or what will fetch a price with the Smithsonian museum |
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12:18
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HP_Archiv |
Anyway, sorry @ivan didn't mean to steal your fire. Thanks for sharing the youtubearchive link |
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12:19
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HP_Archiv |
Lol @Raccoon, again - I can't disagree with any of that. All valid points |
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12:19
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HP_Archiv |
It begs the question, 'Why?' for anything we regard as worthy of preservation, indeed |
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12:20
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ivan |
don't need @ to highlight on IRC |
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12:20
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Raccoon |
it's VERY hard to tell in advance just what will strike a chord with the audience, let alone re-write a nation's culture. |
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12:20
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HP_Archiv |
Thanks, didn't know ^^ |
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12:21
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HP_Archiv |
And yeah, that's why the proverbial view of 'we can't save everything' always bugged me |
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12:22
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Raccoon |
A fine example is the simple (classic, great) movie 3:10 to Yuma. Given the completely unrelated circomstance of Cuban fascism and the US embargo, it turns out that 3:10 to Yuma can become Cuba's most culturally significant film adored by all, if for no other reason than it's the only good film they had to watch for 30 years |
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12:22
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Raccoon |
So culturally significant that Cubans now call Americans, "Yumas" |
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12:22
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HP_Archiv |
Good example of cultural begetting culture ^^ |
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12:23
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HP_Archiv |
culture* |
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12:23
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Raccoon |
A small town in Arizona is now the name of the peoples of a nation |
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12:24
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Raccoon |
all because a black and white film played on rerun like M*A*S*H |
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12:25
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HP_Archiv |
There is no limit to cultural output, it's limitless. In its rawest form, culture is a singular idea, a thought |
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12:26
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HP_Archiv |
Each thought or idea its own thing, etc. |
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12:26
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Raccoon |
But will we ever recover the hats they were wearing on the set of that film ;) |
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12:26
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HP_Archiv |
Maybe having promotional stills of the show of the characters wearing said hats would be 'good enough', heh |
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12:27
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HP_Archiv |
Or highly skilled people, like Adam Savage, re-create a particular prop, etc. Oh that reminds me - you might like this Raccoon |
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12:27
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Raccoon |
Yeah, he's quite the craftsman |
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12:27
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HP_Archiv |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29SopXQfc_s |
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12:28
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HP_Archiv |
In this talk, he goes on about this wild journey to recreate an exact replica of statue found in The Maltese Falcon |
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12:29
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HP_Archiv |
The stuff that dreams are made of... https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/mystery-of-the-maltese-falcon |
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12:30
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HP_Archiv |
Using your logic, the replicas are their own thing - which I would agree - also worthy of being asked the question - is this good enough, is it worthy of being preserved |
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12:31
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HP_Archiv |
That talk he gave, though old, is really good. Worth the whole watch :) Good night ^^ |
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12:43
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HP_Archiv |
Actually, just realized that the actual Ted Talk is here, that other video from Fora.tv is edited for some reason, https://youtu.be/rEg-ZNB3qyI night |
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Raccoon |
that one was pretty good. very on point with the conversation at hand too :) |
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Raccoon |
his 20 gig download folder is adorable though :) |
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HP_Archiv |
Yeah, I like how world's collide sometimes like that, very on point indeed :) And 'over 20GBs of info' that was from 2008, go figure heh |
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Raccoon |
Does anyone have a sort of exhaustive list of various time and date printed format variants, and how they might classically have been used, or whether they have an ISO standard or conventional name attached to them |
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