| Time |
Nickname |
Message |
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00:10
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britmob has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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00:24
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HP_Archiv has joined #archiveteam-ot |
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00:43
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hook54321 |
(moving from #archiveteamquorum) atphoenix: I don't think Matrix is quite ready. It still has a variety of issues. As far as I know Riot is the only client with support for practically everything (and the UI is bad in my opinion), and Synapse still has issues. |
|
00:50
🔗
|
atphoenix |
Riot's UI needs improvement, agreed. I'm pretty tech-savvy, and I thought the UI was kludgey. Like Signal it can do encryption. Unlike Signal, it can also do federation. But the UI sucks; people are suckers for eye candy. |
|
01:01
🔗
|
Raccoon |
If there is one thing Matrix is good at, it's netsplits. |
|
01:01
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|
Raccoon |
Way better and way more netsplits than EFnet experiences |
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01:01
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Frogging |
Raccoon: are you talking about the IRC bridge(s) or Matrix itself? |
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01:01
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01:02
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Raccoon |
If the IRC bridges are any indication, I imagine anything Matrix touches |
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01:02
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Raccoon |
Don't they go down quite often |
|
01:03
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|
Frogging |
they seem to, but I don't know whether that reflects instability on Matrix's side or if the IRC bridges are separate |
|
01:03
🔗
|
Raccoon |
I'd also say that Matrix users are way less attentive than, say, Discord users |
|
01:04
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|
Frogging |
that sounds like a meaningless broad generalization |
|
01:04
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|
Raccoon |
broad generalizations help us navigate the world and identify quality over quantity |
|
01:04
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|
Raccoon |
:) |
|
01:05
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|
Raccoon |
But when I ping people on Matrix, they usually never get back to me. Discord, they usually do, and even with expedience |
|
01:05
🔗
|
JAA |
From what I've heard, the bridges are awful. |
|
01:05
🔗
|
JAA |
Cf. https://www.hackint.org/#20181028_Matrix_Bridging_Sunset |
|
01:06
🔗
|
Frogging |
Raccoon: maybe the Matrix clients don't have good notifications. but that's pure speculation on my part since I've never used Matrix |
|
01:07
🔗
|
Raccoon |
I'm of the impression that Discord is much more developer friendly, as far as bots and such go |
|
01:08
🔗
|
Frogging |
a proprietary, centralized protocol with a ToS that explicitly disallows third-party clients is not in any way developer friendly. |
|
01:08
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Discord? |
|
01:08
🔗
|
Frogging |
yes, discord |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Raccoon |
It's developer friendly because you can connect your own node-js clients to it, with hand holding ease |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Frogging |
I can't tell if you're being serious. Do you have a point? |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Kaz |
we tried the discord thing |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Kaz |
it didn't work |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Kaz |
we're not doing the matrix thing |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Raccoon |
and users can interact with thsoe bots on discord like they were people |
|
01:09
🔗
|
Frogging |
Discord seems antithetical to ArchiveTeam as well |
|
01:10
🔗
|
JAA |
^ |
|
01:10
🔗
|
JAA |
And we'd be breaking their ToS in a kind of impressive number of ways. |
|
01:10
🔗
|
Raccoon |
so if people like ivan want to have bots like !sa <link>, they can exist on Discord, and few other places |
|
01:10
🔗
|
Kaz |
JAA: that's not a good argument against it though |
|
01:10
🔗
|
Kaz |
that's kinda been our thing recently, breaking TOSs |
|
01:10
🔗
|
Raccoon |
not sure how it's breaking ToS when it's actively invited |
|
01:10
🔗
|
Kaz |
(but yes, we're still not doing discord again) |
|
01:11
🔗
|
Frogging |
it's for-profit and likely to shut down or be sold off when it fails to make a profit, as all such services do eventually |
|
01:11
🔗
|
JAA |
Kaz: I mean, breaking ToS of sites we archive, sure. But we could easily get kicked off Discord if someone complained about us to them enough. |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Raccoon |
personally, I think IRC is better. It just doesn't have the userbase that Discord does, advancing projects like Flashpoint/FlashFreeze and Lost Media Wiki |
|
01:12
🔗
|
JAA |
("Someone" being e.g. a disgruntled site owner.) |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Frogging |
It's also antithetical to ArchiveTeam because it has no data migration story |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Raccoon |
those projects are very successful because they're on Discord |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Raccoon |
probably no other reason |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Kaz |
I have a solution to all of this |
|
01:12
🔗
|
Kaz |
ircs://irc.hackint.org:6697 |
|
01:13
🔗
|
hook54321 |
JAA: they're apparently considering trying it again https://twitter.com/hackintirc/status/1212865843631153153 |
|
01:13
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Kaz: Why is some second rate tiny immature IRC server superior to, say, EFnet? |
|
01:13
🔗
|
Raccoon |
with only like 2000 users connected to it |
|
01:13
🔗
|
Frogging |
https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/hackint_vs_EFnet |
|
01:13
🔗
|
Kaz |
who gives a shit how many people are connected to it |
|
01:14
🔗
|
Kaz |
fewer netsplits, better (i.e they exist) services |
|
01:14
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Frogging: that list is bogus, because it boils down to hackint having only 3 or 4 servers and virtually no server load / users. |
|
01:14
🔗
|
Kaz |
so far, no pedo ascii spam on hackint |
|
01:14
🔗
|
Raccoon |
wow. |
|
01:14
🔗
|
JAA |
hook54321: Right, I guess the bridges may have improved in the last 1.5 years. I haven't heard anyone praising them so far though. #wget on Freenode is also awful to use because the devs use Matrix bridges. |
|
01:14
🔗
|
Raccoon |
measure of success right there |
|
01:15
🔗
|
Kaz |
I'm pretty sure JAA's script would autoban me if I posted some of the stuff we've had in the past |
|
01:15
🔗
|
JAA |
I'd hope so. :-) |
|
01:15
🔗
|
hook54321 |
the freenode matrix.org bridge is completely unusable, yeah. apparently it's overloaded. |
|
01:16
🔗
|
Kaz |
also, based on the uptime here I'd consider efnet closer to 'second rate' than hackint |
|
01:16
🔗
|
|
JAA sets mode: +o Kaz |
|
01:16
🔗
|
Kaz |
efnet is the senile old bloke in the pub, can't remember where he's supposed to be or what he's supposed to do |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Raccoon |
another reason I would suggest giving Discord a look, is because an apparently significant proportion of AT users are already active on Discord in other projects, and regularly talk about ArchiveTeam |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Kaz |
discord is still a no |
|
01:17
🔗
|
JAA |
We're not going to Discord. |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Raccoon |
in just those two afformentioned projects above |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Frogging |
Discord is a laughable suggestion |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Frogging |
honestly |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Kaz, JAA: citation please? |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Kaz |
me, now, 2020 |
|
01:17
🔗
|
JAA |
"<@JAA> We're not going to Discord." |
|
01:17
🔗
|
Kaz |
ayy |
|
01:18
🔗
|
Raccoon |
JAA: meritous bullet points or rude authoritarianism? |
|
01:18
🔗
|
JAA |
I think it's been explained in enough detail above. |
|
01:18
🔗
|
Frogging |
[20:11:25] <Frogging> it's for-profit and likely to shut down or be sold off when it fails to make a profit, as all such services do eventually |
|
01:18
🔗
|
Raccoon |
so, freenode and github |
|
01:18
🔗
|
hook54321 |
Raccoon: https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history |
|
01:19
🔗
|
Kaz |
here's the thing |
|
01:19
🔗
|
Frogging |
[20:12:08] <Frogging> It's also antithetical to ArchiveTeam because it has no data migration story |
|
01:19
🔗
|
JAA |
Maybe I should make a page similar to my EFnet list about why Discord can fuck off. |
|
01:19
🔗
|
Kaz |
we already have a github alternative, and make decent use of it |
|
01:19
🔗
|
Frogging |
[20:08:20] <Frogging> a proprietary, centralized protocol with a ToS that explicitly disallows third-party clients is not in any way developer friendly. |
|
01:20
🔗
|
Raccoon |
I don't get how they disallow third-party clients when they give you a tutorial on designing third-party clients (aka bots) |
|
01:20
🔗
|
Kaz |
i am not a robot |
|
01:20
🔗
|
hook54321 |
user bots are disallowed |
|
01:20
🔗
|
hook54321 |
they have gone so far to ban people for theming their client |
|
01:21
🔗
|
Frogging |
Raccoon: through a tightly controlled API and with restrictive conditions |
|
01:21
🔗
|
Frogging |
Seriously, Discord can fuck off forever. |
|
01:21
🔗
|
Kaz |
here's the thing.. I'm a discord user. I LIKE discord. as a user I have nothing against it, I'm happy to trade whatever data they're getting on me, for the convenience |
|
01:21
🔗
|
Kaz |
that does not make it suitable for AT |
|
01:22
🔗
|
Raccoon |
it's where all the users and hoes are at. if interaction and involvement is desired |
|
01:22
🔗
|
Frogging |
that's not what's desired right now |
|
01:22
🔗
|
Frogging |
what is desired is a stable platform to continue our existing activities |
|
01:22
🔗
|
hook54321 |
if they want to participate they can come here |
|
01:23
🔗
|
hook54321 |
instead of trying to get everyone already here to move there |
|
01:24
🔗
|
Kaz |
hell, half the time I actually look at IRC i wish there was *less* conversation |
|
01:24
🔗
|
Frogging |
And yeah, like Kaz alluded to, they are probably collecting and selling your data. |
|
01:24
🔗
|
Raccoon |
hook54321: that seems to work about as well as butthurt content creators asking people to use Bitchute and Gab instead of YouTube and Twitter. |
|
01:24
🔗
|
Kaz |
it's not failed us yet. |
|
01:24
🔗
|
hook54321 |
"Gab" |
|
01:25
🔗
|
Frogging |
Why do you keep pulling irrelevant crap out of thin air |
|
01:25
🔗
|
Kaz |
gab is a serious platform for serious people only |
|
01:25
🔗
|
JAA |
More like PeerTube and Mastodon, which actually have some traction. |
|
01:25
🔗
|
Kaz |
how dare you suggest anything different |
|
01:25
🔗
|
JAA |
And guess what, now Twitter is looking into potentially implementing ActivityPub... |
|
01:25
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Frogging: it's a point in demographics and getting people to change platforms from the popular mainstays to the dusty dark corners of the internet where few people wander |
|
01:25
🔗
|
hook54321 |
and gab is a fork of mastodon |
|
01:25
🔗
|
Frogging |
Raccoon: But lack of activity isn't even a problem we're having right now |
|
01:26
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Frogging: i would consider that it is, but perhaps I'm mislead |
|
01:26
🔗
|
JAA |
I'm not opposed to there being a place on Discord where people can come and report shutdowns to us. We need to get better with that sort of outreach anyway. But actual AT moving there? Hell no. |
|
01:27
🔗
|
Raccoon |
EFNet is already a dusty corner of the Internet. HackInt is just dustier still |
|
01:27
🔗
|
JAA |
Actually no. |
|
01:27
🔗
|
Frogging |
do you think that most of the people in here discovered this channel through EFNet itself? |
|
01:27
🔗
|
Raccoon |
at least open some freenode channels, since the intellectual IRC users are already there |
|
01:27
🔗
|
Kaz |
Hahahahhaha |
|
01:27
🔗
|
JAA |
EFnet is very dusty, hackint is nice and shiny. |
|
01:28
🔗
|
Frogging |
I think we're being trolled |
|
01:28
🔗
|
Kaz |
It’s been a good run |
|
01:28
🔗
|
Raccoon |
Frogging: well, thanks for othering me |
|
01:29
🔗
|
Frogging |
Raccoon: wasn't my intention, just a figure of speech |
|
01:29
🔗
|
Frogging |
I'm not really in any "in-group" here, if that's even a thing |
|
01:29
🔗
|
Raccoon |
how many efnet users migrated to ivan's new #youtubearchive channel on hackint? |
|
01:29
🔗
|
JAA |
https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/Discord |
|
01:29
🔗
|
Raccoon |
just curious how we're doing a full month in |
|
01:29
🔗
|
JAA |
For reference when the next guy comes suggest we use Discord. |
|
01:29
🔗
|
JAA |
Raccoon: Pretty much everyone who used it on EFnet before, I think. |
|
01:29
🔗
|
Raccoon |
JAA: are you there? what's the current user count |
|
01:29
🔗
|
hook54321 |
35 |
|
01:31
🔗
|
Raccoon |
I guess that's close enough to the 51 that were there |
|
01:31
🔗
|
Frogging |
Raccoon: fwiw, I'm only on EFNet because of AT. I'm not loyal to any particular IRC network |
|
01:31
🔗
|
Frogging |
I'm on many networks |
|
01:34
🔗
|
Frogging |
You're not wrong, Hackint is smaller, but I doubt people who click the IRC link on the wiki really care what network it's directing them to |
|
01:34
🔗
|
Raccoon |
irc links are a rarely used fad that rarely work when you click on them |
|
01:34
🔗
|
Raccoon |
just an observation |
|
01:34
🔗
|
Kaz |
just like efnet |
|
01:35
🔗
|
Frogging |
there you go changing the subject again |
|
01:35
🔗
|
Raccoon |
you brought up irc links, i don't know why |
|
01:35
🔗
|
hook54321 |
we haven't even moved to hackint yet, you're welcome to make suggestions about other networks. |
|
01:36
🔗
|
Raccoon |
I will ask Khaled to add Hackint to the mIRC client server list |
|
01:36
🔗
|
Raccoon |
so at least there's some hope |
|
01:36
🔗
|
Raccoon |
might also ask on freenode in #weechat and #irssi and #hexchat |
|
01:36
🔗
|
Frogging |
the key words were "wiki" and "people won't really care what network it's directing them to" |
|
01:36
🔗
|
Raccoon |
make sure that network is baked into all the popular clients |
|
01:36
🔗
|
hook54321 |
people can connect to it even if it's not "baked into" the client |
|
01:37
🔗
|
Kaz |
colour me confused |
|
01:37
🔗
|
Raccoon |
so it's easier to find with mouse clicks |
|
01:37
🔗
|
Kaz |
Raccoon wants freenode because it's full of intellectuals, but also wants to babysit people into connecting to hackint |
|
01:38
🔗
|
Raccoon |
logistics |
|
01:40
🔗
|
Kaz |
well, hackint is available when you feel like connecting |
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02:03
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svchfoo3 sets mode: +o kiska |
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svchfoo1 sets mode: +o kiska |
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02:50
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marked1 |
what happened when AT tried to use Discord before? Is that what someone implied was attempted? |
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11:23
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Kaz |
the AT discord still exists. it's not a good platform for the kinda things we do though |
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11:23
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Kaz |
from memory, stuff like centralised admin would've been an issue, some people don't like selling their data etc |
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