[00:10] *** britmob has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [00:24] *** HP_Archiv has joined #archiveteam-ot [00:43] (moving from #archiveteamquorum) atphoenix: I don't think Matrix is quite ready. It still has a variety of issues. As far as I know Riot is the only client with support for practically everything (and the UI is bad in my opinion), and Synapse still has issues. [00:50] Riot's UI needs improvement, agreed. I'm pretty tech-savvy, and I thought the UI was kludgey. Like Signal it can do encryption. Unlike Signal, it can also do federation. But the UI sucks; people are suckers for eye candy. [01:01] If there is one thing Matrix is good at, it's netsplits. [01:01] Way better and way more netsplits than EFnet experiences [01:01] Raccoon: are you talking about the IRC bridge(s) or Matrix itself? [01:01] *** icedice has joined #archiveteam-ot [01:02] If the IRC bridges are any indication, I imagine anything Matrix touches [01:02] Don't they go down quite often [01:03] they seem to, but I don't know whether that reflects instability on Matrix's side or if the IRC bridges are separate [01:03] I'd also say that Matrix users are way less attentive than, say, Discord users [01:04] that sounds like a meaningless broad generalization [01:04] broad generalizations help us navigate the world and identify quality over quantity [01:04] :) [01:05] But when I ping people on Matrix, they usually never get back to me. Discord, they usually do, and even with expedience [01:05] From what I've heard, the bridges are awful. [01:05] Cf. https://www.hackint.org/#20181028_Matrix_Bridging_Sunset [01:06] Raccoon: maybe the Matrix clients don't have good notifications. but that's pure speculation on my part since I've never used Matrix [01:07] I'm of the impression that Discord is much more developer friendly, as far as bots and such go [01:08] a proprietary, centralized protocol with a ToS that explicitly disallows third-party clients is not in any way developer friendly. [01:08] Discord? [01:08] yes, discord [01:09] It's developer friendly because you can connect your own node-js clients to it, with hand holding ease [01:09] I can't tell if you're being serious. Do you have a point? [01:09] we tried the discord thing [01:09] it didn't work [01:09] we're not doing the matrix thing [01:09] and users can interact with thsoe bots on discord like they were people [01:09] Discord seems antithetical to ArchiveTeam as well [01:10] ^ [01:10] And we'd be breaking their ToS in a kind of impressive number of ways. [01:10] so if people like ivan want to have bots like !sa , they can exist on Discord, and few other places [01:10] JAA: that's not a good argument against it though [01:10] that's kinda been our thing recently, breaking TOSs [01:10] not sure how it's breaking ToS when it's actively invited [01:10] (but yes, we're still not doing discord again) [01:11] it's for-profit and likely to shut down or be sold off when it fails to make a profit, as all such services do eventually [01:11] Kaz: I mean, breaking ToS of sites we archive, sure. But we could easily get kicked off Discord if someone complained about us to them enough. [01:12] personally, I think IRC is better. It just doesn't have the userbase that Discord does, advancing projects like Flashpoint/FlashFreeze and Lost Media Wiki [01:12] ("Someone" being e.g. a disgruntled site owner.) [01:12] It's also antithetical to ArchiveTeam because it has no data migration story [01:12] those projects are very successful because they're on Discord [01:12] probably no other reason [01:12] I have a solution to all of this [01:12] ircs://irc.hackint.org:6697 [01:13] JAA: they're apparently considering trying it again https://twitter.com/hackintirc/status/1212865843631153153 [01:13] Kaz: Why is some second rate tiny immature IRC server superior to, say, EFnet? [01:13] with only like 2000 users connected to it [01:13] https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/hackint_vs_EFnet [01:13] who gives a shit how many people are connected to it [01:14] fewer netsplits, better (i.e they exist) services [01:14] Frogging: that list is bogus, because it boils down to hackint having only 3 or 4 servers and virtually no server load / users. [01:14] so far, no pedo ascii spam on hackint [01:14] wow. [01:14] hook54321: Right, I guess the bridges may have improved in the last 1.5 years. I haven't heard anyone praising them so far though. #wget on Freenode is also awful to use because the devs use Matrix bridges. [01:14] measure of success right there [01:15] I'm pretty sure JAA's script would autoban me if I posted some of the stuff we've had in the past [01:15] I'd hope so. :-) [01:15] the freenode matrix.org bridge is completely unusable, yeah. apparently it's overloaded. [01:16] also, based on the uptime here I'd consider efnet closer to 'second rate' than hackint [01:16] *** JAA sets mode: +o Kaz [01:16] efnet is the senile old bloke in the pub, can't remember where he's supposed to be or what he's supposed to do [01:17] another reason I would suggest giving Discord a look, is because an apparently significant proportion of AT users are already active on Discord in other projects, and regularly talk about ArchiveTeam [01:17] discord is still a no [01:17] We're not going to Discord. [01:17] in just those two afformentioned projects above [01:17] Discord is a laughable suggestion [01:17] honestly [01:17] Kaz, JAA: citation please? [01:17] me, now, 2020 [01:17] "<@JAA> We're not going to Discord." [01:17] ayy [01:18] JAA: meritous bullet points or rude authoritarianism? [01:18] I think it's been explained in enough detail above. [01:18] [20:11:25] it's for-profit and likely to shut down or be sold off when it fails to make a profit, as all such services do eventually [01:18] so, freenode and github [01:18] Raccoon: https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history [01:19] here's the thing [01:19] [20:12:08] It's also antithetical to ArchiveTeam because it has no data migration story [01:19] Maybe I should make a page similar to my EFnet list about why Discord can fuck off. [01:19] we already have a github alternative, and make decent use of it [01:19] [20:08:20] a proprietary, centralized protocol with a ToS that explicitly disallows third-party clients is not in any way developer friendly. [01:20] I don't get how they disallow third-party clients when they give you a tutorial on designing third-party clients (aka bots) [01:20] i am not a robot [01:20] user bots are disallowed [01:20] they have gone so far to ban people for theming their client [01:21] Raccoon: through a tightly controlled API and with restrictive conditions [01:21] Seriously, Discord can fuck off forever. [01:21] here's the thing.. I'm a discord user. I LIKE discord. as a user I have nothing against it, I'm happy to trade whatever data they're getting on me, for the convenience [01:21] that does not make it suitable for AT [01:22] it's where all the users and hoes are at. if interaction and involvement is desired [01:22] that's not what's desired right now [01:22] what is desired is a stable platform to continue our existing activities [01:22] if they want to participate they can come here [01:23] instead of trying to get everyone already here to move there [01:24] hell, half the time I actually look at IRC i wish there was *less* conversation [01:24] And yeah, like Kaz alluded to, they are probably collecting and selling your data. [01:24] hook54321: that seems to work about as well as butthurt content creators asking people to use Bitchute and Gab instead of YouTube and Twitter. [01:24] it's not failed us yet. [01:24] "Gab" [01:25] Why do you keep pulling irrelevant crap out of thin air [01:25] gab is a serious platform for serious people only [01:25] More like PeerTube and Mastodon, which actually have some traction. [01:25] how dare you suggest anything different [01:25] And guess what, now Twitter is looking into potentially implementing ActivityPub... [01:25] Frogging: it's a point in demographics and getting people to change platforms from the popular mainstays to the dusty dark corners of the internet where few people wander [01:25] and gab is a fork of mastodon [01:25] Raccoon: But lack of activity isn't even a problem we're having right now [01:26] Frogging: i would consider that it is, but perhaps I'm mislead [01:26] I'm not opposed to there being a place on Discord where people can come and report shutdowns to us. We need to get better with that sort of outreach anyway. But actual AT moving there? Hell no. [01:27] EFNet is already a dusty corner of the Internet. HackInt is just dustier still [01:27] Actually no. [01:27] do you think that most of the people in here discovered this channel through EFNet itself? [01:27] at least open some freenode channels, since the intellectual IRC users are already there [01:27] Hahahahhaha [01:27] EFnet is very dusty, hackint is nice and shiny. [01:28] I think we're being trolled [01:28] It’s been a good run [01:28] Frogging: well, thanks for othering me [01:29] Raccoon: wasn't my intention, just a figure of speech [01:29] I'm not really in any "in-group" here, if that's even a thing [01:29] how many efnet users migrated to ivan's new #youtubearchive channel on hackint? [01:29] https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/Discord [01:29] just curious how we're doing a full month in [01:29] For reference when the next guy comes suggest we use Discord. [01:29] Raccoon: Pretty much everyone who used it on EFnet before, I think. [01:29] JAA: are you there? what's the current user count [01:29] 35 [01:31] I guess that's close enough to the 51 that were there [01:31] Raccoon: fwiw, I'm only on EFNet because of AT. I'm not loyal to any particular IRC network [01:31] I'm on many networks [01:34] You're not wrong, Hackint is smaller, but I doubt people who click the IRC link on the wiki really care what network it's directing them to [01:34] irc links are a rarely used fad that rarely work when you click on them [01:34] just an observation [01:34] just like efnet [01:35] there you go changing the subject again [01:35] you brought up irc links, i don't know why [01:35] we haven't even moved to hackint yet, you're welcome to make suggestions about other networks. [01:36] I will ask Khaled to add Hackint to the mIRC client server list [01:36] so at least there's some hope [01:36] might also ask on freenode in #weechat and #irssi and #hexchat [01:36] the key words were "wiki" and "people won't really care what network it's directing them to" [01:36] make sure that network is baked into all the popular clients [01:36] people can connect to it even if it's not "baked into" the client [01:37] colour me confused [01:37] so it's easier to find with mouse clicks [01:37] Raccoon wants freenode because it's full of intellectuals, but also wants to babysit people into connecting to hackint [01:38] logistics [01:40] well, hackint is available when you feel like connecting [02:03] *** Maylay has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [02:09] *** thuban4 has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:11] *** thuban3 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [02:18] *** godane has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) [02:27] *** Maylay has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:27] *** Maylay has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection!) [02:27] *** Maylay has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:32] *** godane has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:39] *** Flashfire has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [02:39] *** kiska has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [02:40] *** kiska has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:40] *** Flashfire has joined #archiveteam-ot [02:41] *** svchfoo3 sets mode: +o kiska [02:41] *** svchfoo1 sets mode: +o kiska [02:50] what happened when AT tried to use Discord before? Is that what someone implied was attempted? [03:05] *** Stilett0 has joined #archiveteam-ot [03:06] *** Stiletto has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [04:40] *** icedice has quit IRC (Leaving) [04:44] *** qw3rty__ has joined #archiveteam-ot [04:48] *** qw3rty_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [05:22] *** HP_Archiv has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [05:32] *** thuban has joined #archiveteam-ot [05:35] *** thuban4 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [06:21] *** wp494 has quit IRC (LOUD UNNECESSARY QUIT MESSAGES) [06:26] *** systwi_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [06:32] *** systwi has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 622 seconds) [06:44] *** NIC007a83 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [06:44] *** wp494 has joined #archiveteam-ot [07:35] *** Larsenv has quit IRC (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) [07:35] *** Larsenv has joined #archiveteam-ot [07:36] *** thuban has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [08:12] *** alex73_ has joined #archiveteam-ot [08:29] *** atbk_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [09:08] *** atbk has joined #archiveteam-ot [09:43] *** thuban has joined #archiveteam-ot [10:00] *** Datechnom has quit IRC (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) [10:00] *** Datechnom has joined #archiveteam-ot [10:06] *** BlueMax has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:14] *** atbk has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 745 seconds) [11:23] the AT discord still exists. it's not a good platform for the kinda things we do though [11:23] from memory, stuff like centralised admin would've been an issue, some people don't like selling their data etc [12:01] *** figgyc has joined #archiveteam-ot [12:31] *** figgyc has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [13:17] *** atbk has joined #archiveteam-ot [15:29] *** prq has joined #archiveteam-ot [15:49] *** wp494 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [15:49] *** britmob has joined #archiveteam-ot [15:53] *** wp494 has joined #archiveteam-ot [16:21] *** DogsRNice has joined #archiveteam-ot [17:29] *** thuban has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:30] *** thuban has joined #archiveteam-ot [17:41] *** Clefairy has joined #archiveteam-ot [18:47] *** systwi has joined #archiveteam-ot [18:54] *** systwi_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 622 seconds) [19:09] *** opticnerv has joined #archiveteam-ot [19:10] *** opticnerv has quit IRC (Leaving) [19:26] *** Stilett0 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) [19:29] *** Stiletto has joined #archiveteam-ot [19:43] *** asdf0101 has quit IRC (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) [19:43] *** marked1 has quit IRC (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) [19:47] *** asdf0101 has joined #archiveteam-ot [19:50] *** marked1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [19:50] *** asdf0101 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [19:51] *** asdf0101 has joined #archiveteam-ot [20:01] *** icedice has joined #archiveteam-ot [20:09] *** BlueMax has joined #archiveteam-ot [20:48] *** Clefairy has quit IRC (Quit: ZNC: the superior metal to CBLT) [20:55] *** Clefable has joined #archiveteam-ot [21:31] *** ShellyRol has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [21:32] *** ShellyRol has joined #archiveteam-ot [22:30] *** icedice has quit IRC (Leaving) [23:16] *** nataraj_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) [23:51] *** thuban1 has joined #archiveteam-ot [23:53] *** thuban has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)