#jsmess 2018-11-29,Thu

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Time Nickname Message
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00:02 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow OK, let's do this.
00:02 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow LET'S DO THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
00:09 ๐Ÿ”— bai YEAH!!!
00:09 ๐Ÿ”— bai wait, what are we doing?
00:12 ๐Ÿ”— DFJustin <("<) (>"<) (>")>
00:14 ๐Ÿ”— DFJustin แ•ฆ(รฒ_รณห‡)แ•ค
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00:28 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I'm going to write a combiner for the multi-sided items in C64.
00:28 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow It's going to collapse a bunch and dark a bunch obviously
00:28 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But let's get Side A-Side B on the fucking road
00:29 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Also, I have a quest for Sgeo_ when he is ready
00:29 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow The Quest of All Quests
00:29 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow A Quest so important, money could be involved for him
00:29 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But first... combining
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow root@teamarchive2:/2/C64# bash COMBINORS
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Paste in the Side A item.
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow https://archive.org/details/Last_Ninja_The_1987_System_3_Side_A
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Last_Ninja_The_1987_System_3_Side_A it is.
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Is there a side B item?
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow There is, there is.
00:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I will therefore shove Last_Ninja_The_1987_System_3_Side_B.d64 from Last_Ninja_The_1987_System_3_Side_B into Last_Ninja_The_1987_System_3_Side_A
00:46 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ o.O
00:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow ia search emulator:vice-resid identifier:*Side_A --itemlist | wc -l
00:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow 1831
00:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow That's right, it's 1831 items
00:58 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow It's running!
00:58 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So it's doing just A-B items now.
00:59 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow (Easier to write the code to do the C-F ones as a separate run, including regenerating fliplist.)
01:00 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_c64_games?and%5B%5D=emulator%3Avice-resid+%22NOW+COMBINED%22&sin=
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01:13 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Oh, so
01:13 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow The guy who I said would be furious about the C64 emulation did his next salvo
01:13 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow He tattled about us to the current owners of Epyx. 90 generally emulated items now off the viewable emulations on the Archive
01:16 ๐Ÿ”— bai I wonder how much he actually makes per year on that
01:17 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Not much, I bet
01:36 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ Some of those side Bs actually run by themselves
01:41 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Gotta revisit frankly
01:41 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I will take the loss of second-side boots over the amount of disks that wanted a second-side and didn't boot at all to them
01:47 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow sets mode: +oooo arkiver balrog godane Lord_Nigh
01:47 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow sets mode: +oo Sgeo_ ted
01:50 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Another 299 gone. :)
02:02 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow OK, sides C, D, E, F all plunked into their A counterparts.
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02:10 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow B is obviously taking some time.,
02:10 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Also, obviously I need to then splash disks into each other as well.
02:12 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So, Sgeo_
02:13 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I consider your work on Vice basically done. Like, maybe you can convince yourself to shave the yak further, but this thing's a clear and great done thing.
02:19 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ :) thank you
02:22 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I offer the next quest
02:25 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I don't know how much you know this, but the structure of MAME is "wrong" for Emularity.
02:30 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ I saw comments in Emularity that seemed like they were referencing something like that, I don't recall the precise details
02:32 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So, MAME works. Obviously Emularity-Version-MAME works.
02:32 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Like, it's not a "doesn't work vs. work" thing
02:33 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But in the conversion from MAME's code to JS/WASM, there's a set of conditions in place that, while they work, absolutely skyrocket the CPU usage, unnecessarily.
02:34 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And in almost every case, causes notable clicking and shuddering if the machine isn't up to the task, or even if it is.
02:34 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow DOSBOX-js, however, does it "right". It only clicks and shudders if the machine is truly not fast enough
02:34 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow (SAE/Amiga does something even crazier, it actually doppler-effects.)
02:35 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And PCE-js works "right"
02:35 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But MAME is, as you know, nearly 1,700 emulators to the others, i.e. 99% of our emulation
02:35 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So what is messed there, the vast majority are messed.
02:36 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow We've done everything we can to optimize. We've had massive improvements on the compiler. We've had massive speedups on javascript and WASM engines in browsers. And we've even come up with a weird custom sound hook.
02:36 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But what really needs to happen
02:36 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow .... is a patch set.
02:37 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow One that shifts the flow of MAME for each new version and shoves it into a different flow that works with Emscripten.
02:37 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow bai did a bit of work in this direction for proof. DFJustin has some of the magic in his head
02:38 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow We even got MooglyGuy and Aaron Giles to at least describe the problem before they both had to withdraw from the pure blasphemy of it
02:38 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow This is important enough that I'm happy to see about you getting some sort of honorarium for taking it on
02:38 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow We can dump a pile of docs on you.
02:39 ๐Ÿ”— bai yeah I did a write-up of the problem, I can dig it up if you can't find it
02:39 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow You showed the skill with VICEjs to make this happen. Ideally, like the VICE approach, it's a series of minimal patches to change the program flow and then you or others in the future noting when the patches fall out of sync.
02:39 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But basically: Fork MAME
02:39 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow There's even a chance they'll ingest it into the flow, as part of the compile option in the future.
02:40 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And maintain it themselves.
02:42 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ I'd like to see the write-ups and documents
02:43 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Yeah, let's find them
02:44 ๐Ÿ”— bai https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FHmn1kO3PGYYCRJejZsZMFk_BxWer_pOaTUANRFroM8
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow That's them
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— bai the long and short of it is that MAME uses the typical native busy-loop which just cranks through at a certain rate and advances the emulator by that many timeslices each loop
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— bai whereas emscripten breaks it up into asynchronous callbacks
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Right. As I understand this, part of the problem is it uses the video routines to do EVERYTHING
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— bai and there's some subtle difference in the timing when you do it that way
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So video drives timing instead of the other way around
02:45 ๐Ÿ”— bai yeah
02:46 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I consider a miniscule sacrifice in timing accuracy to be a perfectly acceptable thing in service of this working
02:46 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Because right now it murders CPUs and it doesn't have to
02:48 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo_ Hmm. VICEjs uses emterpretify, but I got lucky that VICE doesn't need to do sync calls (including sleep) during the main loop, only in the menus
02:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Let me stress, if this was a super easy fix, it'd have been done
02:48 ๐Ÿ”— bai well, timing inaccuracies are part of why we get the stuttering, but yeah, fixing the maxed-cpu part would give us a lot ore leeway with that
02:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow That's the part
02:48 ๐Ÿ”— bai yeah mame uses usleep heavily for ensuring timing, I believe
02:49 ๐Ÿ”— bai there is one other option which has become more of a possibility since this article was written, which is to run MAME entirely in a worker
02:49 ๐Ÿ”— bai then the fact that it's doing a cpu-maxing busy loop is less of a problem, albeit still a bit rude
02:50 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Problem is that we lose the ability to make it run less hot everywhere
02:50 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Phones can run mame in the browser if we get that CPU usage down
02:51 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow sets mode: +o Vito`
02:51 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow VICE Disk consolidation is now down to the M's.
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16:05 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Sgeo: What do ya think!
16:14 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo I'll start reading through the code soon, but I'm not at all sure about being able to fix things.
16:14 ๐Ÿ”— Sgeo AFK
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16:57 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I have faith
16:57 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow HUGE faith
16:57 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow You've got a braintrust here that can answer any question
18:18 ๐Ÿ”— shattered what's for dinner? :)
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19:37 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Swedish Meatballs
20:02 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I'm now smashing all _Disk_2_of items into _Disk_1_of items
20:02 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow This will drop another 800+ items into multi-disk versions
21:30 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow bai: You think that's notch's problem, he's being misrepresented?
21:32 ๐Ÿ”— bai SketchCow: I think there was definitely some aspect of that, yes
21:33 ๐Ÿ”— bai I think he sometimes does a poor job of expressing complex ideas and it's easy to misinterpret them with the worst possible explanation
21:37 ๐Ÿ”— bai I dunno if I can really clarify too much without triggering a whole thing, but one case that comes to mind was when he tweeted something about not believing affirmative action was a good solution and everyone took it to mean he's a white suppremacist
21:38 ๐Ÿ”— bai when you reach that level of celebrity, people are just waiting in the wings to jump on everything you say and spin it in the worst possible light
21:39 ๐Ÿ”— bai I know I've said plenty of dumbass shit over the past 20 years on irc that could be used as ammo to paint me in a poor light
21:39 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow notch is, objectively, a terrible person.
21:39 ๐Ÿ”— bai irony and sarcasm has a way of getting completely lost when people are motivated to interpret things in a certain light
21:40 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And now he's a terrible person with a billion dollars.
21:40 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I seriously don't think he needs a wingman.
21:41 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And the IRC stuff is awesomeeeeee
21:41 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Speaking of terrible people
21:41 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I've begun turning on Amiga stuff again
21:43 ๐Ÿ”— bai it's not so much that I'm wingmanning him, it's that watching that whole thing as it developped reinforced my own insecurities about what happens when you find success and unwittingly become a public figure whose every words are picked apart to find meaning which probably wasn't really your intent
21:43 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I think you can find better nightmares than his nightmare.
21:43 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow He's a really terrible guy.
21:44 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow I have lots of other people forced into a spotlight where it destroyed them or ruined them, and I have much more sympathy.
21:46 ๐Ÿ”— bai well, you're probably more familiar with the feeling than I, given your own somewhat controversial semi-celebrity status :D
21:47 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow So, I blocked notch some time ago (feels good, man) so I haven't checked on him lately
21:47 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But unless he's become the dalai lama
21:48 ๐Ÿ”— bai there's a certain dgaf-about-the-haters attitude that you have to adopt, and I think he took the wrong tact of trying to engage and clarify which as we all know only makes things worse
21:48 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow https://twitter.com/notch/status/936295448184348672
21:49 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDvMH9mU0AEUN66.jpg:large
21:51 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Anyway, he's a garbage human being but these IRC logs are just nerds testing a program
21:51 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow And talking about what's hard and easy to put in
21:51 ๐Ÿ”— bai it's a complicated topic and he's certainly a shitidiot about expressing what I think he actually means
21:52 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow You give him so much credit
21:52 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow This is an adorable flaw!
21:53 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow But I am fine with this flaw because you're generous to work on an insane programming project with solid ramifications but thanksless years of labor.
21:56 ๐Ÿ”— SketchCow Taking a short nap, then recording a couple podcasts which I promise will not be about notch
21:56 ๐Ÿ”— bai :D
22:07 ๐Ÿ”— DFJustin in other news, I thought there was a bug in the new emscripten version fucking over mame but after going back and trying incrementally newer versions now it works again
22:07 ๐Ÿ”— DFJustin so hooray I guess
22:10 ๐Ÿ”— DFJustin bgfx isn't working until https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/pull/7506 goes in but I don't think we're running that publicly anyway
irclogger-viewer