#archiveteam-bs 2017-09-22,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
joepie91_second: haven't used Go, have used Python; but I've looked at Go a bit, and can't say that I'd recommend it based on that
Go seems very much designed for the lowest common denominator; it's pretty lacking in the guarantees it provides, there are some bizarre missing features in standard libraries (apparently timeouts cannot be controlled on a per-connection basis, at least for HTTP stuff? Caddy was having issues with this), URL-based dependency management is a terrible idea, and it seems entirely reliant on Google continuing to support it
I'm not particularly a fan of Python for a variety of reasons, but if the choice were between those two, I'd probably say Python; it's certainly going to be around and supported in a decade, it has mature standard libraries, and a healthy ecosystem
(my languages of choice nowadays are either JS (using Node.js) or Rust, depending on requirements and type of project)
and with that I disappear off to bed
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chfooi haven't done anything in go so i don't really know much about it [00:41]
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secondThanks :) [02:23]
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Somebody2ola_norsk (if you read the logs): A *lot* of IA's collections are available for free, public download. ... [06:16]
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Somebody2You could work on organizing funding and maintainance for sufficient storage to hold the public stuff without any permission or involvement by IA.
And once you have that, you could populate it, again with minimal to no involvement by IA.
If/when you did that, and still had available room, I *strongly* expect IA would be *very glad* to talk to you about mirroring ...
various parts of their non-freely-available material.
So, please DO talk to greenmountain about mirroring!
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JAAsecond: I've never worked with Go either.
joepie91_: What do you dislike about Python? 2.x has tons of issues, but I think 3.x is lovely.
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zinoPython is a lovely language with a few flaws that makes me avoid it if I can. Among them: 1. No block markers. Hard dependency on indentation is cute but infuriatingly fragile. 2. Lack of sane type system
Slightly biased though. Have been a developer of another language since before Python was a thing. :)
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JAAHow is indentation fragile?
I always indent blocks anyway, also in other languages, simply for readability, so I find block markers redundant.
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zinoTo early in the morning to run through that. I'll be stuck here for an hour and be late for work. Let's reconvene at a later time. [08:42]
JAASure :-) [08:42]
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joepie91_JAA: excruciatingly poor package management, poor ecosystem documentation, Python 2/3 compat issues (when writing a library), it's mostly ecosystem stuff
also, a jungle of mutually incompatible async I/O stuff
it's just not pleasant to work with if you need to color outside the lines, and I have yet to find a case [that is relevant to me in any way] where Python is a better choice than JS
because it's bad at the same things JS is bad at
[10:08]
JAAWell yeah, pretty much all languages have that problem of package management, documentation of external libraries/packages, etc.
Python 2 should really just die already, then you also get rid of the compatibility issues. ;-)
And I assume you refer to the various frameworks for developing asynchronous stuff, like trollius etc.? Python 3.5 (I think) has asyncio in the core library. I don't have much experience with it though.
Just checked. asyncio (which was previously developed as an external package for years) was merged into Python at version 3.4, but the new syntax of 'async def' and 'await' (instead of abusing generators) was only introduced in 3.5.
Also 'async with' and 'async for', of course.
[10:11]
joepie91_JAA: both package management and documentation are fine in Node.js-land and Rust-land :)
JAA: with async stuff I'm referring to twisted, tornado, etc.
and yes, asyncio is a thing now, but support is far from widespread last I checked
which means you now really just have Yet Another Async Implementation
[10:25]
JAAIt'll only be as good as the package maintainers make it, right? That's really the same in Python-land. Most packages I've worked with are documented pretty well. [10:26]
joepie91_one with slightly better compatibility than the previous options, but still not universal
JAA: no, it's nowhere near as simple as that
it's largely dependent on habits and attitudes in the ecosystem, and the tools that are at hand
I've found an overwhelming attitude of "stop complaining it's fine" in Python-land
leading to nobody ever fixing any reported issues ever that aren't provable bugs
this is definitely an ecosystem thing that varies by language
[10:26]
JAAI guess we didn't work with the same packages then. [10:27]
joepie91_Rust has an extremely strong focus on accessibility and therefore has very good documentation almost across the board
Node.js doesn't have that focus, but the low barrier to documentation ("a README that's shown front-and-center on the NPM package page") means that nearly everybody writes enough documentation to use their stuff
JAA: more likely, you didn't color outside the lines as much
for example, I've often hear people praise the Twisted documentation
which, yeah, sure, is great if you have bog standard usecases like 'serve up a HTTP response"
but try to look at shit like a reverse proxy and suddenly there's "Undocumented" tags everywhere
this is one of the big reasons I jumped ship from Python, that almost universally the uncommon cases did not have sufficient documentation or reference documentation was completely absent
[10:27]
JAAThe asynio situation is definitely the one of XKCD 927, but anytime something is introduced into the core library, there are already dozens of other implementations because people needed something like that already, so that's not really surprising. [10:29]
joepie91_for big and small packages alike [10:29]
JAAYes, fuck Twisted. I've worked with that once, and it's a nightmare. [10:29]
joepie91_sure, just trying to point out the contrast between common and uncommon stuff
in Twisted this is obvious because there *are* undocumented markers
in most packages there's just a void and you don't even realize a feature is there
[10:30]
JAAI also work a lot with numpy, scipy, etc. though, and those are really excellent. [10:30]
joepie91_numpy and scipy and that entire scientific-computing eocsystem are exceptions :) [10:30]
JAAHehe [10:30]
joepie91_ecosystem*
incidentally, also the only thing where Python is still the optimal choice imo
simply because of the library support
but as a general-purpose language, I cannot recommend it at all
in particular because of the unwillingness of people in the ecosystem to fix the issues that exist
I got tired pretty quickly of having every bit of criticism met by somebody trying to trivialize it
[10:31]
JAAMhm. I haven't come across that so far, to be honest.
Then again, I also didn't work with many Python package maintainers.
[10:32]
joepie91_right
it becomes pretty obvious when you try to do the less obvious things :P
anyway, tl;dr the Python ecosystem is stagnant
and that is honestly a bigger issue than the problems existing in the first place
I don't really care about problems so long as there's a good chance that they will be resolved
but if people refuse to acknowledge the problems in the first place...
(for all the hate that JS gets, you can walk up to almost any maintainer for a package on NPM and say "such and such is bad because X, perhaps it can be improved by doing Y?" and you'll probably be taken seriously)
(and Rust people are just trying to get it right from the start)
anyway, enough ranting, my shoulder is complaining :P
[10:33]
JAAIf that's true, then it's definitely an issue. But as said, I've never seen that anywhere so far.
I don't suppose you have examples?
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joepie91_in happier news: https://twitter.com/qufdl7900/status/910804760244056064
JAA: not a lot of documented stuff, but https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-February/641772.html and the thread surrounding it is an example
(that particular post is especially good, better than my original post that it's about)
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JAAThanks, I'll look at it later. [10:39]
joepie91_(also, the post of mine it references was my last-ditch effort to try and get shit fixed before jumping ship) [10:39]
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DFJustinhttp://blog.archive.org/2017/09/22/experiments-day-hackathon-2017/ [17:46]
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Smileyyawn
wow, fired up my 2 year outta date warrior, iut still works
\o/ gj guys :)
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JAAYeah, the warrior hasn't been updated in several years, as far as I know. :-/ [21:06]
jrwrI have a updated VM pending
but no one bothered to approve it
:)
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JAAThe one which uses the Docker container internally, right? [21:21]
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