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aschmitz_ is now known as aschmitz |
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03:16
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aschmitz |
joepie91: Is it possible to archive IPFS? Not that I'm saying we should, but can you enumerate objects even if you don't know about them in advance? |
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03:32
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03:32
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joepie91 |
aschmitz: not reasonably |
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03:33
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joepie91 |
it's content-addressable, so by definition it should have unpredictable/unguessable hashes to make it secure enough |
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03:33
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joepie91 |
so unless you have friends at the NSA... :) |
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03:34
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joepie91 |
that having been said, there are several mechanisms for providing indexes/structure to IPFS objects |
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03:34
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joepie91 |
that might be more enumerable |
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03:46
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* |
Frogging googles IPFS |
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03:46
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Frogging |
this looks like unreliable cansur |
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03:47
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03:47
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Frogging |
lol TechCrunch article |
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03:47
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Frogging |
"IPFS isn't exactly a well-known technology yet, even among many in the Valley" |
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03:47
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Frogging |
>the Valley |
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03:48
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Frogging |
oh please |
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03:49
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JesseW |
joepie91: First of all, I think you are right to worry about the effects that making it easier to rely on peers for distribution will have on reliability. However, I don't think the new distributed protocols themselves *require* this abdication of responsibility for backups, and they do make it easier to regularly check that backups are in sync. |
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03:50
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JesseW |
Also, I'm not sure I (yet) understand what you mean by "this trend of building everything on top of IPFS". Can you expand on that? |
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03:59
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joepie91 |
JesseW: there's been a lot of hype amongst devs lately to redesign everything on top of IPFS |
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03:59
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joepie91 |
image hosts, Git, NPM |
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03:59
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joepie91 |
basically, lots of things that host user content |
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03:59
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joepie91 |
it's been a thing of the past year or so |
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03:59
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joepie91 |
but there are working prototypes |
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04:00
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joepie91 |
and while i agree that the protocols don't require it, it's the default |
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04:00
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joepie91 |
and it needs to be explicitly mitigated against before adopting said protocols |
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04:03
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Frogging |
is reinventing the wheel trendy nowadays |
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04:03
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Frogging |
I feel like it is |
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04:03
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JesseW |
Frogging: reinventing the wheel has always been trendy |
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04:03
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JesseW |
joepie91: Hm. What do you see as possible "explicit mitigations"? |
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04:04
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Frogging |
long retention time baked in? |
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04:04
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JesseW |
Frogging: I'd say that's the opposite of a mitigation -- that makes it *easier* to not think explicitly about reliablity |
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04:04
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JesseW |
(whee, spelling) |
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04:05
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Frogging |
hmm. perhaps |
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04:06
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Frogging |
you can't really mitigate the fact that people just don't care |
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04:06
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Frogging |
though |
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04:06
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JesseW |
I'm not sure, but I lean more towards explicit support for agreements between peers to keep copies of each others material, and |
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04:08
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JesseW |
automatic trawlers that make offline copies of material with alarmingly few seeds, then ransom it |
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04:08
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JesseW |
(thereby discouraging people from letting them be the only holders of copies) |
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04:08
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Frogging |
what's the ransom bit needed for |
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04:08
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Frogging |
Or how does that work |
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04:09
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JesseW |
otherwise people would just rely on the trawlers, which would raise their costs too high to run |
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04:09
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Frogging |
people wouldn't do so regardless? |
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04:10
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JesseW |
what I was thinking of is -- a program that looks for things with, say, 3 seeds -- and makes a copy of the thing, but *offline*. Then, if/when there are *no* seeds, it advertises that it will seed the thing after a specific payment is made. |
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04:11
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JesseW |
So, if you want something distributed, you can either make sure there are always enough seeds -- or you can pay the ransom. |
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04:12
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JesseW |
And the trawler would only seed for a fixed period of time -- if no-one else picks up a copy soon enough, back down it goes, and the next ransom is higher. |
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04:12
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04:15
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joepie91 |
JesseW: freenet solves this with a balancing mechanism that tries to replicate rare content, iirc |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
but I'm fuzzy on the specifics |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
I haven't thought into this particular case *too* far though |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
or how to solve it |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
problem is that IPFS intends to be a set of building blocks |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
for other applications |
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04:15
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joepie91 |
so there's not really a one-size-fits-all solution |
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04:16
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04:16
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JesseW |
Nods. That makes sense |
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04:16
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04:38
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04:58
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05:05
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05:23
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JesseW |
joepie91: I was talking about what you brought up elsewhere, and someone mentioned that IPFS explicitly doesn't make any guarantee of peers storing data -- so that may help at least somewhat in regards to discouraging irresponsibility with backups |
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05:24
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JesseW |
maybe relevant link: https://github.com/ipfs/faq/issues/93 |
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05:25
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05:27
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joepie91 |
JesseW: yeah, but people don't read docs |
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05:27
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joepie91 |
that's why I said this is a game theory problem |
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05:27
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joepie91 |
it's not based on what people *understand* about the technology, but how people *perceive* it |
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05:28
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joepie91 |
(I also think that the descriptor of "permanent" is incredibly confusing here and shouldn't ever have been used - deterministic would've been much more appropriate, for example) |
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05:29
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JesseW |
I certainly agree with you about the permanent vs deterministic vocab choice, yes. |
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05:30
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JesseW |
most people don't read most docs, but some people read some docs -- so docs do have some effect |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
'some effect' isn't enough here |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
and even if they do |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
that does not necessarily change their behaviour |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
example: good luck obtaining the second email dump from the hbgary hack |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
it was all over the internet |
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05:32
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joepie91 |
exemplary of an era |
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05:33
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joepie91 |
it's completely impossible to find an intact copy |
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05:33
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joepie91 |
all the torrents are dead |
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05:33
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joepie91 |
all those who had an interest in it thought that somebody else would seed it |
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05:33
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joepie91 |
despite being fully well aware of how torrents do not provide persistence either |
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05:40
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davidar_ |
joepie91: are you suggesting it's less likely that content would have disappeared if it was served from a central host? |
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05:41
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05:41
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JesseW |
I'm not sure a definitively illegal, nontrivially-sized piece of content is a particularly good example |
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05:41
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davidar_ |
mm |
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05:41
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JesseW |
And just because none of the people who downloaded are currently seeding it doesn't mean that none of them don't still have copies offline. |
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05:42
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JesseW |
hi davidar_ |
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05:42
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05:43
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davidar_ |
given the amount of content that goes missing from the web normally, I'm having trouble seeing how ipfs will cause massive data loss in comparison |
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05:44
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davidar_ |
even when people know they have to make backups they don't |
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05:47
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joepie91 |
davidar_: no, not necessarily. I'm just pointing out that the "if people know there's no permanence guarantee, they will keep it around" reasoning doesn't work in practice |
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05:47
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joepie91 |
people don't make decisions that way |
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05:48
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godane |
i just noticed now that i put the john legere videos as being from 2015-01-07 |
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05:48
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joepie91 |
and if you compare unintentional unavailability of torrents to unintentional unavailability of centralized content... then torrents fare *far, far* worse |
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05:48
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godane |
when there from 2016-01-07 |
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05:48
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godane |
i fixed the metadata now: https://archive.org/details/john-legere-twitter-periscope-video-2015-01-07 |
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05:49
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joepie91 |
JesseW: fwiw, I've been looking for this particular piece of data for the past... 1-2 years now? |
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05:49
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joepie91 |
so if you can find an offline copy, that would be much appreciated ;) |
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05:49
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JesseW |
joepie91: are you sure that is *unintentional* unavailability |
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05:50
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davidar_ |
I didn't argue that - if nobody keeps a copy of content, then it's gone (ipfs or not) |
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05:50
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JesseW |
joepie91: I doubt I know the right people. But if I do, I'll let you know |
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05:50
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joepie91 |
JesseW: am I sure that *what* is unintentional unavailability? |
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05:50
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davidar_ |
and centralised webpages disappear all the time (hence wayback) |
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05:50
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JesseW |
"if you compare unintentional unavailability of torrents to unintentional unavailability of centralized content" |
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05:50
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joepie91 |
davidar_: 'unavailability' isn't a useful metric |
|
05:51
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joepie91 |
intentional vs. unintentional unavailability are two completely different things |
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05:51
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joepie91 |
the only thing they have in common is that you can no longer access it |
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05:51
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JesseW |
I agree that lots more torrents become unavailable -- but I suspect a lot of that is intentional |
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05:51
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joepie91 |
JesseW: I doubt that |
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05:51
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JesseW |
why? |
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05:51
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joepie91 |
torrents simply die out as they become less popular |
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05:51
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joepie91 |
public torrents, that is |
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05:51
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joepie91 |
there are entire TV series that are nigh impossible to torrent |
|
05:51
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joepie91 |
because they die out 2-3 months after broadcast |
|
05:52
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joepie91 |
because nobody feels responsible for keeping it around |
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05:52
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JesseW |
and why do you think this is unintentional? |
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05:52
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joepie91 |
and "I can just torrent it again later" is a common refrain |
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05:52
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joepie91 |
JesseW: because each individual peer did not decide to "make the torrent unavailable" |
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05:52
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joepie91 |
they just decided that their seeding was not necessary |
|
05:52
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joepie91 |
unlikely to be with the intention to affect the torrent as a whole |
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05:52
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JesseW |
and their keeping a local copy, also |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
yes, but then the above comes into play. |
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05:53
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JesseW |
because if they still had a local copy, and noticed there were no seeds, they could just reseed |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
lots of people thinking "oh I don't need to back this up, I can torrent it later" |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
JesseW: that doesn't happen in practice. |
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05:53
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joepie91 |
look, we can go on about "in theory" until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change how people actually use these technologies |
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05:53
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davidar_ |
if nobody cared about the content enough to host it, it's irrelevant what distribution system people are using |
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05:54
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davidar_ |
if nobody cares enough to keep a web server running, that website disappears |
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05:54
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joepie91 |
and how people actually use these technologies, is that the general public does not feel responsible for the data they are seeding, even if they know that there is a risk of it disappearing, and EVEN if they (rationally) know that that means that they might not be able to get a copy later even if they want it |
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05:54
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joepie91 |
sigh |
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05:54
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joepie91 |
if you're going to ignore the entire psychological aspect of this, then I'm going to step out of this discussion |
|
05:54
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joepie91 |
because clearly there's no useful discussion to be had |
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05:55
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joepie91 |
I'm not talking about fucking technology here |
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05:55
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JesseW |
I don't dispute the psychology is the central point |
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05:55
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joepie91 |
I'm talking about _human behaviour_ |
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05:55
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joepie91 |
how people interact with shit |
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05:55
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joepie91 |
and I end up having to repeat the same shit over and over again and I'm getting tired of it |
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05:55
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davidar_ |
Yes, clearly i was using the word "care" in technological sense... |
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05:56
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davidar_ |
*in the |
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05:56
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joepie91 |
davidar_: the problem is that you're not making an effort to understand the problem. rather, you're looking for ways in which you can declare that it *isn't* a problem. |
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05:56
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joepie91 |
this doesn't help anybody |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
I'm not here to try and convince you *that* it is a problem |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
if that's how this discussion is going to go, then I'm just going to go sleep |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
because I should have been asleep an hour ago |
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05:57
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JesseW |
with regards to torrents of illegal material, I suspect that at least part of the psychological reason for people avoiding acting as seeds for rare material is that they are worried about being targeted, because there is less of a crowd to hide in |
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05:57
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joepie91 |
the problem is there, it exists, and I have no problem explaining the details of it, but I'm not going to waste my time having a fruitless argument based on superficial interpretations |
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05:58
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JesseW |
but I don't want to keep you awake when you'd be better asleep. The discussion will keep. |
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06:00
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joepie91 |
night |
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06:01
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JesseW |
'gnight |
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06:02
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06:06
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06:06
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JesseW |
hi bwn |
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06:07
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bwn |
*waves* mm, comcast decided to lose it |
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06:09
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JesseW |
lose what? |
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06:12
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xmc |
our confidence in their ability to route packets |
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06:13
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JesseW |
They've lost that a long time ago |
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06:14
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JesseW |
Every time a packet goes through comcast, I'm surprised |
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06:14
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06:17
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bwn |
an angel gets its wings too |
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06:18
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JesseW |
Yes, and *that's* what comcast uses to route packets -- angels! |
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06:19
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JesseW |
How many packets can be routed by one angel? |
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06:22
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DoomTay |
5? |
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06:22
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06:22
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06:23
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bwn |
I think the archangels are enterprise ready and cloud certified |
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06:26
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JesseW |
Hm, but are the thrones and dominions compatible with Azure and Bing? |
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06:27
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JesseW |
btw, have you all seen http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/ ? |
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06:34
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DoomTay |
I should read that sometime |
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06:36
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JesseW |
It's quite entertaining |
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06:37
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06:44
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bwn |
these are great |
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06:46
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SketchCow |
I am uploading.... a lot of stuff tonight |
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06:50
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DoomTay |
What time is it over there? |
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06:50
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pikhq_ |
23:50 |
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06:51
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DoomTay |
Because it's past midnight here and the only reason I havne't gone to bed yet is because I'm waiting for some stuff to finish |
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06:53
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SketchCow |
It's Jason time. |
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06:53
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SketchCow |
It's always Jason time. |
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07:00
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JesseW |
you are often uploading ... a lot of stuff. :-) |
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07:06
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HCross2 |
Morning all :) |
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kristian_ |
:command MarkNonASCII /[^\x00-\x7F] |
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botpie91 |
kristian_: 10 Jun 11:32Z <joepie91> tell kristian_ that I was just passing on the message from bzc6p because I wasn't sure that it registered correctly |
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11:59
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kristian_ |
joepie91, huh? |
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12:00
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kristian_ |
anyway, I have what I just pasted in my vimrc ... but how do I make it ignore certain characters? æ ø å Æ Ø Å specifically ... |
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yipdw |
oh nice, AWS 2FA doesn't generate recovery codes |
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12:19
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yipdw |
Stack Overflow answers recommend saving the 2FA secret or QR code "somewhere", nice |
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12:20
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yipdw |
AWS: Why Would You Need That But Check Out This Scaling Thingy since 2006 |
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kristian_ |
ah, sorry ... wrong channel for Vim questions :) |
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Atluxity |
:P |
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joepie91 |
kristian_: that was a very old message |
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kristian_ |
so it seems ... it does not ring a bell |
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kristian_ |
probably not important |
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metal_cam is now known as metalcamp |
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godane |
SketchCow: i found out that your putting Da Vincis Demons into the Saturday Morning Cartoons |
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godane |
thats a Showtime tv show |
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godane |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci's_Demons |
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SketchCow |
I know |
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SketchCow |
Here's the deal |
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SketchCow |
People are using me, occasionally, as "Let's just dump all the shit on FOS" |
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SketchCow |
And now I am just trying to slam through as much of it as possible |
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SketchCow |
Then a round of refinement |
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SketchCow |
This was a pile, a massive, insane pile of shows |
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godane |
ok |
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godane |
good news is the show ended last year |
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HCross |
new UK prime minister has just arrived at Downing Street. Time for a round of new archiving |
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Kazzy |
welp, snoopers charter |
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godane |
looks like i was the one that give you the N64 Cartridge Art Collection |
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ranma |
FOS? |
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xmc |
some computer thing |
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Igloo |
Futuristic Operating System |
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ranma |
man, there are some tv shows i want to upload somewhere |
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ranma |
like IA |
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xmc |
https://archive.org/upload/ |
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ranma |
but i fear for my account |
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Igloo |
Create another one? |
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xmc |
make a new account just for that then |
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ranma |
heh |
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ranma |
TIL IA was hosting Future Crew's Metropolis album https://archive.org/details/futurecrew-metropolis |
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DoomTay |
Think 7xpbnywkyokg6yfgta96panc9 should get the "nogravatar" ignoreset? |
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FalconK |
is it stuck doing nothing but gravatars? |
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DoomTay |
Not at the moment, no |
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ErkDog |
it says it's already done anyway... |
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yipdw |
fos means "fortress of solitude" |
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ErkDog |
LOL |
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xmc |
aka the timeout corner |
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Frogging |
^ |
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yipdw |
it's not a joke, it's the truth |
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